HC Deb 31 July 1939 vol 350 cc2110-22

Order read for Consideration of Lords Amendments.

10.18 p.m.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley)

I beg to move, "That the Lords Amendments be now considered."

It would appear that these Amendments are large in number, but the great majority are of a purely drafting character. Two raise points of some substance, and a certain number of others are machinery Amendments and cannot be called purely drafting. I think it would, perhaps, be for the convenience of the House if my hon. Friend and I pointed out any Amendment which was more than pure drafting and gave some words of explanation, and the House can take it that any Amendment not so explained is purely of a drafting character.

Mr. Rhys Davies

It may facilitate the proceedings if I say that those of us on this side of the House who are interested in this Measure have gone through the Amendments and that we support all that the right hon. Gentleman has said.

Mr. Levy

May I be allowed to rein force what the hon. Gentleman the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) has said, that all those who are interested in this Measure have gone through the Amendments, and believe that this is an agreed Measure.

Lords Amendments considered accordingly.

CLAUSE 5. —(Registration of persons carrying on business in the industry and of merchants.)

Lords Amendment: In page 4, line 40, leave out "three" and insert "two."

10.23 p.m

The Parliamentary-Secretary to the Board of Trade (Mr. Cross)

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment is in fulfilment of the undertaking given on the Committee stage that we would consider whether the machinery of registration could be speeded up. The Amendment reduces the period during which registration must take effect for persons carrying on business in the industry from three to two months, and this carries out the under taking.

CLAUSE 9— (Provisions as to price schemes.)

Lords Amendment: In page 15, line 17, at the end, insert: and, in relation to any person who, by virtue of Part II of the said Schedule, is authorised in sell that product or subject it to a process at a price or for a charge lower than the said normal minimum price or charge, any determination made in relation to that product under provisions of the scheme having effect by virtue of paragrap(e) of Sub-section (1) of the last preceding Section shall have effect as if any reference in that determination to that normal minimum price or charge were a reference to the said lower price or charge.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move. "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment is to permit the super-efficient producer to allow discounts on his larger orders similar to those that are permitted to his competitors who must adhere to the normal minimum. It is only fair that this should be permitted to the super-efficient producer, and so it is necessary to insert this provision.

Lords Amendment: In page 15, line 17, at the end, insert: (6) If, with respect to any price scheme, it appears at any time to the Cotton Industry Board that a normal minimum price or normal minimum charge for the time being determined under the scheme exceeds the price or charge to the determination of which at that time the Cotton Industry Board could law fully have consented, the Cotton Industry Board shall forthwith serve on the board administering the scheme a notice in writing specifying the sum which by virtue of Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act would have been the maximum limit in relation to any determination of that normal minimum price or normal minimum charge made at that time, and requiring the last-mentioned board to reduce the normal minimum price or normal minimum charge to amount not exceeding the sum so specified in the notice; and if, at the expiration of the period of fourteen days beginning with the date of the service of the said notice, the board administering the scheme have not complied with the requirements of the notice, the Cotton Industry Board shall themselves determine a normal minimum price or normal minimum charge in accordance with the said requirements, and that determination shall have effect as a determination of the board administering the scheme.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The Bill prescribes that a price scheme must contain the maximum level beyond which the normal minimum price must not be fixed. Costs of production may fall, however, and in these circumstances the normal minimum price might be above what the maximum limit would have been if in fixing it account had been taken of a fall in costs. If a fall occurs it is obvious that the minimum price should be reduced to a level which does not exceed the maximum limit. In the Bill as drafted there is no power to ensure that such a reduction is made in the normal minimum price. The Amendment enables the Cotton Industry Board to review the normal minimum price if at any time it appears to them that it exceeds what the maximum limit would be if it were calculated on the new level of costs. If the normal minimum price does exceed the maximum limit then the board can notify the price board in question and require them to reduce the normal minimum price to a level that does not exceed the maximum limit as calculated after making allowance for the fall in costs. If the Price Board does not lower its price within a period of 14 days then the Cotton Industry Board itself can fix a new normal minimum. There is no new principle involved in the Amendment. It is a necessary addition to the Bill and is in conformity with the principle of the Bill as it left this House.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 15, line 27, agreed to.

CLAUSE II. — (Provisions for securing due operation of price schemes in relation to merchants, etc.)

Lords Amendment: In page 18, line 7, leave out "any determination of the board administering."

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment and the two Amendments which follow it refer to the publication of notices. The Amendments relate also to the poll which has to be taken regarding a sectional scheme. The Bill as at present drafted sets various time limits, commencing with the date of the notice, or of the notification of a poll, and the Amendments make it clear that the notice is to be published and that the time limits shall run from the date of publication, which is a more definite date.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 26, line 33, agreed to.

CLAUSE 16.—(Consideration of sectional schemes by Board of Trade and sub mission to Parliament.)

Lords Amendment: In page 27, line 37, after "Board," insert: and shall, as soon as may be after so doing, publish, in such manner as they think best adapted for informing persons affected, a notice stating that the Cotton Industry Board will cause a poll to be taken on the question whether it is expedient that the scheme as modified should have statutory effect, if, within the period of seven days beginning with the date of the publication of the notice, a request in that behalf is made in writing to the said board by the requisite proportion of persons named in the said list.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment and the one immediately following are for the same purpose as that which I have described on a previous Amendment, namely, to give the date of the publication of the notice in stead of the notice itself as a more definite date from which the time limit shall run.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 40, line 34, agreed to.

CLAUSE 29.—(Special provisions as to persons engaged in certain businesses.)

Lords Amendment: In page 44, line 14, leave out Sub-section (1) and insert:

  1. "(i) The provisions of this section shall apply to every person who holds a certificate, given by a qualified accountant, that of the value of the total quantity of products of the industry manufactured by the first mentioned person in the preceding calendar year at least two-thirds was the value of one or more of the following products, that is to say, —
    1. (a)sewing thread, Lancaster cloth, American cloth and any such commodities as the Cotton Industry Board, with the approval of the Board of Trade, may from time to time designate for the purposes of this paragraph,
    2. (b)surgical dressings, and
    3. (c)products which —
      1. (i) in a case where the said person is not a company, have not been sold by that person, and have not been used otherwise than in the manufacture by him of one or more of the following commodities, that is to say, commodities mentioned in paragraph (a) of this sub section, surgical dressings (whether products of the industry or not),tyres, rubber hoses and such other commodities as the Cotton Industry Board, with the approval of the Board of Trade, may from time to time designate for the purposes of this sub-paragraph, or
      2. (ii) in a case where the said person is a company, have not been sold by that company otherwise than to a related company for the purpose of being used by that or another related company in the manufacture of one or more of the commodities mentioned in sub-paragraph (i) of this paragraph, and have not been used otherwise than for the purpose of the manufacture, by the first-mentioned company or a related company, of one or more of those commodities
  2. (2) In the preceding subsection —
    1. (a)the expression ' surgical dressings ' includes any articles designed to be worn on, or applied to, the body for curative, prophylactic or hygienic purposes only, but does not include handkerchiefs; and
    2. (b)the expression ' related company ' means —
      1. (i) a company which is subsidiary to the company in question, or a company to which the company in question is subsidiary; or
        2. 2115
      2. (ii) a company subsidiary to a company to which the company in question is also subsidiary or a company subsidiary to a company being itself subsidiary to a company to which the company in question is also subsidiary; and for the purposes of this paragraph, a company shall be deemed to be subsidiary to another company if, in relation to that other company, it is a subsidiary company as defined by section one hundred and twenty-seven of the Companies Act, 1929"

10.31 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Hon. Members may recollect that on the Report stage we had a considerable discussion about Clause 27, which is now Clause 29. It deals with the exemptions from certain of the provisions of the Bill of people dealing in specialities, which are set out in the words of the Clause. On the Report stage I moved an Amendment to get over some difficulties which had been revealed in the Committee stage, but the general sense of the House was that the Amendment was too wide, and, while getting rid of the difficulties, created new difficulties in its turn. I promised to consider whether I could find new words, and as a result of consideration, and after consultation with everyone concerned, this Amendment has been moved which, I believe, meets the wishes of the various parties concerned.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 45, line 23, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 46, line 41, at the end, insert:

NEW CLAUSE A. —(Incidental provisions as to Committees.) A. The Cotton Industry Advisory Committee, the Representative Advisory Council, the Export Development Committee and the Rayon Committee may act notwithstanding a vacancy among the members thereof; and all acts done at any meeting of any such committee or of the said council shall, not with standing that it is afterwards discovered that there was some defect in the appointment or qualifications of a person purporting to be a member of the committee or council be as valid as if that defect had not existed.

10.32 p.m.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

It is a purely drafting Amendment.

CLAUSE 37.— (Interpretation.)

Lords Amendment: In page 51, line 13. after "Kingdom," insert "(otherwise than in the industry)."

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is in the nature of a drafting Amendment. It relates to the definition of merchant. It has been pointed out that the existing definition might also include spinners and manufacturers. This, of course, is not intended. It is extremely unlikely that any such mistake would be made, but we are inserting these words to put the matter beyond all doubt.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 51, line 15, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 51, line 23, leave out from "includes" to the end of line 28, and insert: in relation to any time when the scheme has not yet come into operation, or any time during the continuance in force of the scheme when the provisions of the scheme empowering the board administering it to acquire plant are not in operation, a cotton mill any plant in which that board could lawfully acquire if the scheme or those provisions thereof, as the case may be, were in operation at that time; and ' mill to which the scheme applied ' shall be construed accordingly.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment applies to the definition of words which occur at several points in the Bill, namely, the words "any mill to which the scheme applies." In Clause 25there is power given to the Cotton Industry Board or the Board of Trade itself to get information about productive capacity and output from owners of mills to which the redundancy scheme applies. The information may be required before the redundancy scheme comes into operation for the purpose of the Cotton Industry Advisory Committee, which will have to consider the merits of the scheme, or it may be required after the powers of the Redundancy Board have expired. The definition of "mill to which the scheme applies" has been altered to provide for both classes of casts.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 52, line 20, agreed to.

FIRST SCHEDULE.— (Constitution and procedure of the Cotton Industry Board.)

Lords Amendment: In page 55, line 7, leave out from "three" to the end of line 11, and insert: shall be appointed as being independent persons, of whom two shall be persons appearing to the Board of Trade to have special knowledge of the industry. One of the three persons so appointed shall he designated by the Board of Trade as chair man of the board.

10.35 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

Hon. Members will recollect that three members of the Cotton Industry Board have to be appointed by the Board of Trade, and as the Bill left the House, the qualification which those three members had to have was a special knowledge of the industry. I felt that that was per haps unnecessarily restrictive, and there fore, this Amendment has been inserted, which makes it possible for one of those three members to be a man having special qualifications, but not necessarily having a knowledge of the cotton industry itself. The Amendment does not put any obligation on me to appoint such a man, but it gives me rather greater freedom of choice in filling these three very important posts.

Mr. Tomlinson

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the Amendment precludes the President of the Board of Trade from appointing three men with a special knowledge of the industry, or whether he must appoint only two such men? Is he restricted in that sense?

Mr. Stanley

No, I could appoint three men having a special knowledge of the industry, but the Amendment gives me power to appoint two having a special knowledge, and one not having it.

10.36 p.m.

Sir P. Harris

The Amendment makes a great improvement. I think the best men available should be obtained to fill these most difficult and responsible jobs. They must be men of integrity, character and imagination. If the Government were to be limited in their choice to men who had a special knowledge of the trade, undoubtedly they would have great difficulty in finding suitable men, for obviously such men already in the industry would be in demand and would probably have remunerative positions. I understand that the Amendment will give the right hon. Gentleman a greater choice, and for that reason, I support it.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 58, line 3, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 59, line 7, after "Board" insert: and any members of a committee of the Board who are not members of the Board.

10.37 pm.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment arises out of a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ell and (Mr. Levy). By an oversight, the power to allow payment of travelling expenses and similar expenses to members of committees of the Cotton Industry Board was restricted to such members of committees as happened also to be members of the board itself. This Amendment remedies that situation. Clearly, it would be inequitable if other members were not permitted to receive their expenses.

Lords Amendment: In page 59, line 22, after "Council" insert "the Rayon Committee."

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

By an oversight, the Rayon Committee was omitted from the committees for which the Cotton Industry Board can provide staff and officers. The Amendment remedies that omission.

THIRD SCHEDULE (Limitations on, and Special Exemptions from, Determination of Normal Minimum Price or Charge under a Price Scheme.)

Lords Amendment: In page 61, line 29, after "plant" insert "and buildings."

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment relates to the making of an allowance for depreciation on buildings in calculating the maximum limit. In the course of the Report stage, my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton (Sir C. Entwistle) said that such a provision should be made, and following an under taking by my right hon. Friend to consider that matter further, he came to the conclusion that it would be proper to allow for depreciation on buildings in calculating the maximum limit, and for that matter also in calculating the costs of the super-efficient producer. I would point out to the House that the amount of depreciation would have to be specified in the scheme, that the scheme will be then subject to the comments of other sections and interests in the industry, as also to the report of the Cotton Industry Board and the Cotton Industry Advisory Committee, the approval of the Board of Trade, and finally the approval of both Houses of Parliament. I think there are ample safeguards against any abuse of the provisions with regard to depreciation on buildings.

Lords Amendment: In page 62, line 10, at the end, insert: and shall include a sum in respect of the cost to the person carrying on the under taking —

  1. (i) of finding persons with whom to make contracts for the sale of the relevant product or the subjection of that product to the relevant process, and
  2. (ii) of performing such contracts as afore said."

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This refers to further items in cost. As at present drafted the Schedule allows only for the cost of manufacturing or processing the product. Those words are too narrow to include such items as the salaries of salesmen, the cost of packing, advertising and so on although these are all costs which have to be entered against the products. On the Report stage my right hon. Friend undertook to consider the inclusion of those items in the cost and I think it is obviously proper to include them.

Mr. Tomlinson

I take it that the remark which was made on a previous Amendment relates to this one also, and that these particulars relating to the costs of the people who make contracts and who go out and get orders, will be part of the scheme when it is submitted.

Mr. Cross

That is so.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 62, line 42, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 63, line 7, leave out paragraph (b)and insert: (b) (if the remuneration of operatives employed for the purposes of that undertaking in that period was less than that which might reasonably be expected to be normally pay able in the section of the industry to which the scheme relates, in the circumstances in which his undertaking was carried on during that period) on the assumption that the said remuneration was that which might reason ably be expected to be so payable.

Mr. Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This paragraph relates to the calculation by the Cotton Industry Board of the wages costs of the super-efficient producer. It would obviously be wrong to allow the super-efficient producer to sell at a lower price, by reason of his lower costs, if those lower costs were based upon wages lower than those which should properly be paid by him in that section of the industry This has been our attitude throughout the proceedings on this Bill. Paragraph (b), as it appeared in the Bill, provided that if the super-efficient producer paid lower rates than those which ought to be paid his costs should be computed as if he were paying the customary rates. The word "rates," however, might not meet all the circumstances of the industry. What we all desire is that the remuneration paid by the exceptionally efficient producer should be not less than that which would be paid by a good employer in the same section of the industry. The Amendment gives the Cotton Industry Board, which, for this purpose, consists of the three in dependent members, power to review the matter in a common-sense way and if the wages appear to them to be too low, to assess the wages costs at what they think they ought to be. That is the same spirit which actuated us in devising the previous form of words, but we think that the altered form now proposed will be better applicable to the various sections of the industry.

10.45 p.m.

Mr. Burke

The operatives in one mill may receive a higher remuneration than those in another mill, but yet the operatives receiving the higher remuneration may be working at less than the customary trade union rates, because they are working either for longer hours or with a greater amount of machinery. I hope the Amendment does really mean that it is the intention to safeguard trade union conditions right throughout the trade.

10.46 p.m.

Mr. Cross

That is most certainly our intention, and we have attempted to draft this paragraph in such a way as to meet the- point that the hon. Member has raised. I think the words referring to the remuneration "which might reasonably be expected to be normally payable" are very wide, and in view of the fact that they are to be interpreted by the three independent members of the board, I hope the hon. Member will see that we have met his point.

10.47 p.m.

Mr. Tomlinson

While I agree that the interpretation as now put on the words by the; Under-Secretary would meet our requirements, and I am quite sure that they would be so interpreted by the three independent members of the board, I should like to have seen in this particular Schedule some reference to trade union rates of wages, particularly in connection with this industry. The hon. Member is aware that we have so far as one section is concerned a legalised rate of wages, and "the said remuneration" for that particular section, I take it, must of necessity be the legalised rate of wage, that in so far as the manufacturing section is concerned it would have to be the wage rate working from the standpoint of those sections of the industry which come under the board, but which do not come under that manufacturing order with respect to wages because of the fact that they are outside the geographical area. If, on the assumption that "reasonably be expected to be so pay able" is those who are governing the majority in the industry, I think it will meet our point, and to the extent that this is an appeasement of the operatives in the industry, and all the sections, I think, have been reasonably appeased during the passage of the Bill, I want to thank the hon. Member for having attempted to meet the point.

Lords Amendment: In page 63, line 26, at the end, insert: In this paragraph the expression the appropriate period ' means, in relation to any change in the normal minimum price or charge, the period of fourteen days beginning with the day on which the change is made or, if within that period the person concerned applies under paragraph 2 of this Part of this Schedule for a determination of the special allowance for cost and depreciation in relation to the new normal minimum price or charge, the period beginning with the said day and ending with the day on which the last-mentioned determination is made.

10.49 P.m

Mr, Cross

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This Amendment is to remove an error which was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams), namely, that on a change of the normal minimum price the super-efficient producer's right to sell at a lower price would automatically be cancelled. It could, therefore, occur that the normal minimum price might be lowered very slightly and that the super-efficient producer would consequently be compelled to raise his price to the new normal minimum level, and to maintain it there until a fresh determination could be made in his regard. The effect of the Amendment is to enable him to continue to sell at his authorised reduced price for 14 days after the change, or if he has asked the Cotton Industry Board to review the matter, until the Cotton Industry Board make their determination. This is a small gap in the Bill, and I am obliged to my hon. Friend for pointing it out.

Remaining Lords Amendments agreed to.