HC Deb 06 July 1939 vol 349 cc1535-43

4.25 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

I beg to move, in page 3, line 6, to leave out paragraphs (a), (b) and (c), and to insert:

  1. "(a) one of the members of the Cotton Industry Board appointed thereto under paragraph 1 of the First Schedule to this Act as being independent persons, who shall be chairman of the committee;
  2. (b)four members selected from the members of the Cotton Industry Board appointed thereto in accordance with sub-paragraphs(a) to (h) of paragraph 2 of the said Schedule, of whom two shall be persons appearing to that board to have special knowledge of the business of spinning yarn from staple rayon fibre, weaving rayon yarn or finishing fabrics woven from rayon yarn;
  3. (c)the member of the Cotton Industry Board appointed thereto in accordance with sub-paragraph (j) of the said paragraph 2;
  4. (d) two additional members being persons who appear to the Cotton Industry Board to have special knowledge of the business of selling fabrics woven from rayon yarn; and
  5. (e) four other additional members."

Mr. Barnes

Does this mean, Mr. Speaker, that we are now on Clause 4 of the Bill? Shall we go back to the earlier Clauses 1, 2 and 3?

Mr. Speaker

We are on Clause 4 of the Bill.

Mr. Barnes

On a point of Order. I observe that you passed over the Amendment on Clause 1—in page 1, line 8, leave out "Board" and insert "Commission"—in the names of my hon. Friends and myself. May I submit to you, for your consideration, that during our Committee proceedings that Amendment secured the widest measure of support of any Amendment that was considered? In so far as this represents a definite point of view of certain hon. Members, not reflecting necessarily either the official Government position or the official Opposition position, it may, if we are prevented from putting this case for consideration to the House, prevent any hon. Member bringing forward a special point of view upon the matter. I ask you to consider whether that Amendment should not have the opportunity of being considered by the Whole House.

Mr. Speaker

I gave all these matters consideration, and I came to the conclusion not to select the Amendment.

Mr. Stanley

This Clause deals with the position of the Export Development Committee, which is a sub-committee of the Cotton Industry Board. It will advise that Board on matters connected with the export trade and with the minimum price in connection with sales for export markets. Hon. Members will realise that that committee is important; it has functions which will be important enough to begin with, but which I venture to hope, as the machinery settles down and there is an increasing amount of unity in the industry, may become more and more important in the future. The position of this committee becomes a matter of great interest. We had considerable discussion on this question during the Committee stage, and a number of suggestions were put forward as to how this committee could be strengthened, from two particular points of view, by interests who must naturally have substantial representation on a committee of this kind.

One of the interests is the merchants, who, as the ultimate sellers of the goods, the last link in the chain of exports, are intimately connected with the whole question, and it was felt that they ought to receive bigger representation than is given under the scheme as originally drafted. The view was put forward also, that there were not enough people on the committee who were interested in, or knew about, rayon, and that, therefore, the interests of rayon in export matters might be overlooked. There was a general consensus of opinion that it would be as well that, between the Committee stage and this stage, I should look into the position again, and submit any proposals I thought fit in view of the discussions. I promised to do that, and this Amendment is the result.

The simplest thing would be if I gave to the House the composition of this committee as it was under the original Bill and as it would be now. Under the old Bill the independent members of the Cotton Industry Board would have had two members on the committee; under this system they will have only one member. There would have been no merchant member of the Cotton Industry Board under the old plan; under this plan the merchant member of the board must be a. member of the Export Development Committee. There were to be four producer members of the Cotton Industry Board under the old scheme, and there will still be four producer members under the new scheme; the only alteration is that, of those four producer members, two must be people who have some knowledge of the rayon industry. There were two rayon producers under the old scheme, and there will still be the same number under the new scheme. There were three merchants under the old scheme, and there will be four under the new scheme, and of those four two must have some knowledge of the merchanting of rayon or mixed rayon and cotton goods.

That means that the committee will be slightly enlarged; there will be 12 members instead of 11. The merchanting interests will have five representatives now, including one representative who is already a member of the Cotton Industry Board, instead of the three originally allotted to them, and although the actual representatives of the rayon interests re main unchanged, a certain number of people representing other interests, either producers or merchants, will have to be people who have some special knowledge of rayon production or merchanting. I think the new composition of the committee meets the criticisms which were made in the Standing Committee, and I believe that it will commend itself to the House.

Mr. Ellis Smith

Have the various interests been consulted in regard to this Amendment, and have they approved it?

Mr. Stanley

They were all consulted. I cannot say that all of them exactly wanted this composition, but I think, on the whole, they are now all prepared to agree that this composition is the best possible.

4.33 p.m.

Mr. Levy

The House will recognise that this Amendment, and one almost might say the whole Bill, is of a very complicated and controversial character, but I would like to pay my tribute to the Joint Committee on the public spirit and broad mind which they have shown in endeavouring to come to agreement. Owing to the tact and skill of my right hon. Friend and the Parliamentary Secretary, together with their advisers, we can say now that all these Amendments, and this Amendment in particular, are really agreed measures of compromise on matters in regard to which undertakings were given by my right hon. Friend and implemented here after consultation with all the parties concerned. I want again to say how much I appreciate the work that everybody who has had anything to do with this Bill has done, with the object, and the only object, of trying to make an agreed Measure, so that when it is on the Statute Book it will be worked harmoniously instead of with a degree of hostility.

4.35 p.m.

Sir P. Harris

I realise that the right hon. Gentleman has had a very difficult task in trying to get this Bill on the Statute Book. I think the whole House realises that and is anxious that there shall be no unnecessary delay. I recognise that the time of the House is very much booked ahead, and that if we do not get this Bill through its Report stage to-day, there will be serious danger of jeopardising its passage. I like tbi3 spirit of good will, but I cannot help making this criticism, that this powerful, pushing, energetic, self-advertising section of the industry, the rayon section of the textile trade, has met with a consider able degree of success. A good deal depends on the spirit in which they carry out their work. If they will display something of the sectional attitude which they did in Committee upstairs, it bodes badly for the future of the cotton and rayon textile trade, because we ought to link the two sections together, but if they pool their resources and aim at co-operating in helping the cotton trade to meet some of its difficulties, this may be a right gesture and may mean success. I am one of those who think that the real test of this Bill—and I would go further and say the only justification for it—is that it should help the export trade. It is the export trade which has had to face the terrific competition from the Far East in the last 10 years and which has felt this undermining of the foundations of the whole industry, whose prosperity so much depends on extending its markets abroad. But I say, in all seriousness, that the whole success of this Clause and of the whole Bill, with all its complicated boards and committees, depends on getting the right men, men of good will, men who will approach these problems with which they have been entrusted, not from a selfish point of view, not from the point of view of their own or of sectional interests, but from the point of view of the general well-being of the cotton trade, and of the export trade in particular.

I hope the right hon. Gentleman, when he has to take his share in appointing independent as opposed to elected members, will take the greatest care to see that the right man is appointed. If I may say so without offence, there must not be any patronage, or any desire to pick a man in order to please him, or to give him a useful or interesting occupation, or because he has been a political supporter. I know the right hon. Gentle man will not be influenced by any interest of that kind. The man who is appointed must be that very rare person in industry, a man of business capacity who at the same time will not have any interest of his own to serve. The real trouble, of course, is that the man of energy and initiative is in most cases busy in his own trade, because there is such a demand for business capacity, in the textile trade as in any other industry, that a man with youth and energy is quickly snapped up by the industry it-self. It will not be easy to find the right kind of man, but the right hon. Gentleman, when he comes to make these selections, will, I am sure, see that the right man is appointed—and he will be lucky to find him—for on that will de- pend the success of the Clause and of the Bill as a whole.

4.39 p.m.

Mr. Rhys Davies

I too would like to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his achievement. What a different atmosphere prevails to-day from that which we experienced upstairs on this very complicated problem. What the right hon. Gentleman has done, of course, has been to placate the people who are interested in the rayon industry; and when he is able to silence the hon. Member for South Croydon (Sir H. Williams) and the hon. and gallant Member for Coventry (Captain Strickland), whom I do not see in his place, he has indeed achieved very much. I join with the hon. Baronet the Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) in hoping that these good people may be able to work together as comfortably and as amicably as they are able to fit together in printed numbers in this Amendment. If they are able to do that, they will in deed have got over a very difficult stile. The two things in connection with this Bill that frightened me most were the price scheme and the problem of this Export Development Committee, and I think I speak for Members on this side when I say, Good luck to the right hon. Gentleman when he comes to set up this committee, and good luck also to the committee if they can work together and achieve the object which we all have in mind.

4.41 p.m.

Mr. McLean Watson

I should like to join with the hon. Member for South-West Bethnal Green (Sir P. Harris) and my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Rhys Davies) in commenting on the changed atmosphere in the House to-day as compared with that in the Standing Committee room. When this Bill was presented to us upstairs, we were told that it was an agreed Measure, that the Joint Committee that had been dealing with the matter had come to a complete agreement, not only on behalf of the manufacturer and the producer, but on behalf of the workers as well. I was surprised yesterday when I saw on the Order Paper pages of Amendments in the name of the President of the Board of Trade, Amendments which made, to be quite frank, considerable changes in the Measure. As my hon. Friend the Member for Westhoughton has pointed out, the powerful rayon interests have been placated, and it seems that during the Report stage you, Sir, will have a much easier and pleasanter time than the Chairman of the Standing Committee had upstairs. He had a pretty difficult task in trying to hold an even balance between these violent conflicting interests of rayon and cotton, but this afternoon we start right away on the Report stage in an entirely new atmosphere. I think it will be to the advantage, not only of the cotton industry in Lancashire, but of the rayon industry in the country as a whole.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill," put, and negatived.

Question proposed, "That the pro posed words be there inserted in the Bill."

4.43 p.m.

Mr. Petherick

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 11, to leave out "Cotton Industry Board," and to insert "Board of Trade."

My right hon. Friend has done his very best all through this Bill to meet minority cases wherever he possibly could. On many occasions he has shown willingness to put down Amendments, of which this is one, but willingness is not everything. Obviously, it is extremely difficult some times, in a highly complicated Measure, to carry out what you wish to do. My right hon. Friend has not only shown willingness, but he has also carried out in the most admirable way the intention. I do not think it will be difficult in this Amendment, because my right hon. Friend has met the interest of one important minority, namely, the merchants, but there is one flaw in the Amendment, and that is that the four additional members are to be appointed by the Cotton Industry Board. That board will not be an independent body, but a body consisting partly of independent members and partly of persons concerned with or interested in the trade. Therefore, it seems to me that it may have some bias, though I hope it will not. The four members to be appointed by the Cotton Industry Board will, I imagine, consist of merchants. That is the intention, but would it not be better—I put it no higher than this—to have those four additional members who are to be merchants appointed by an entirely independent body, namely, the Board of Trade itself, rather than handing these appointments over to the Cotton Industry Board? Therefore, I would ask my right hon. Friend whether he would consider this possibility and, if he thinks fit, when the Bill goes to another place, to make such an Amendment.

Sir Reginald dairy

I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

4.45 p.m.

Mr. Stanley

This is an Amendment which it is impossible to accept. The proper arrangement is that this Export Development Committee should be a sub committee of the Cotton Industry Board. If there is a body which has a sub-committee of this kind, surely the normal procedure is that the parent body appoints those of its own members who are to be members of the committee and also those people who are to be co-opted from out side. That is an arrangement from which one cannot depart without very good reason. What are the reasons which the hon. Member puts forward? His only reason is that he thinks the Cotton Industry Board may be biased. Although they have a statutory duty to consult bodies representing the merchants, he feels that, having consulted them, they would simply ignore their views and appoint somebody else. That is a suspicion of the Cotton Industry Board which I am not prepared to admit by accepting an Amendment of this kind.

If, in fact, it were the case that the Cotton Industry Board composed, as it is to be composed, of people of high standing in the trade, and independent members as well, cannot be trusted, after they have consulted a body representing the merchants, to appoint the right people, then they cannot be trusted with anything under this Bill, and we had much better not have the machinery that is laid down. I cannot adopt that view. I believe that the board when appointed will act fairly, sensibly and judiciously, and that when it has had consultations with representative organisations, and has entered into those consultations sincerely, it will be guided by those consultations in the appointment of people. Therefore, the method in the Bill which allows these people to be appointed by the Cotton Industry Board, after proper consultation with representative associations, is the right one and should remain.

4.47 p.m.

Sir Cyril Entwistle

I should like to point out that the members of the Cotton Industry Board themselves have to be appointed by the Board of Trade, and as this is a sub-committee of that board, indirectly it is a sub-committee of the Board of Trade. It will be appointed by members of a board who have themselves been appointed by the Board of Trade, as representing the whole industry. That Board will not represent any one section, but will be a board governing all the sections and representing all the various interests. Therefore, as the Cotton Industry Board will have been appointed by the Board of Trade and this committee will be a sub-committee of that board, I hope the House will see the reasonableness of the proposal in the Bill.

Mr. Petherick

In view of the explanation of my right hon. Friend, and appreciating the way he has met us, although I am sorry he cannot accept the Amendment, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 21, leave out "three members," and insert: four members (including the two members to be appointed in accordance with paragraph (d) of the last preceding sub-section)."—[Mr. Stanley.]