AIR-RAID PRECAUTIONS.

HC Deb 23 February 1939 vol 344 cc545-57

25. Miss Ward

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that the Government Advisory Committee of Architects and Engineers on structural precautions in buildings against air-raid attack has for two years asked for tests to be made of the destructive power of various bomb types when used against various building structures; whether a large number of tests for air-raid precautions purposes still remain to be done; and what steps he is taking to expedite these tests?

Sir J. Anderson

I am aware of the fact that the tests to which my hon. Friend refers have not yet been completed. In order that this matter, among others, may be expedited I have recently made arrangements with the Department of Scientific and Industrial Research under which the resources of the building research station and the services of the director of building research are available for research and advice in connection with air-raid precautions.

26. Miss Ward

asked the Lord Privy Seal how many local authorities have prepared the following statistical and graphical data concerning their administrative areas: the day- and night-time populations; the number of persons whom it would be advisable to evacuate in an emergency; large scale plans showing the distribution and position of all forms of public service, and mains and conduits; large scale plans showing the distribution of open spaces, framed buildings, well-built unframed buildings, and other buildings; large scale plans showing the proposed distribution of all forms of fire-fighting and rescue stations, and all types of shelters; and estimates of the amount of material which would be needed for the construction of shelters, its cost, and the labour which would be available to erect the shelters?

Sir J. Anderson

The particulars asked for do not correspond to any advice or instructions hitherto issued to local authorities, and I regret that I am, therefore, not in possession of any returns which would enable me to give my hon. Friend the rather elaborate details desired.

Miss Ward

Am I to infer that the information asked for in my question is considered not to be desirable?

Sir J. Anderson

No, Sir, that is not to be inferred. What is to be inferred is that responsible local authorities are allowed, and properly allowed, a certain measure of discretion in carrying out their duties.

Mr. Herbert Morrison

Having regard to the fact that this information is vital to the consideration of the provision of adequate shelters, does not the right hon. Gentleman recognise that his Department has some responsibility for the issue of some guidance to local authorities as to the collection of such information?

Sir J. Anderson

I know that the Department has some responsibility for giving guidance, but that is rather a different matter from demanding from local authorities particular detailed information, a good deal of which covers ground which is already covered in the course of their normal duties.

Mr. R. Acland

Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to issue some guidance to local authorities who ask him that information on the lines suggested in the question should be collected?

Sir J. Anderson

I should be glad to answer such a question if it were put on the Order Paper.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox

Are not all these points of very necessary information? Is it not necessary to ginger up some local authorities?

Mr. Noel-Baker

Is it not very important that local authorities in preparing plans for shelters should have this information co-ordinated in the way suggested in the question?

Sir J. Anderson

I think it may be co-ordinated by local authorities, but the question is whether I have on record particulars in the exact form necessary to reply to the details of the question.

Mr. George Griffiths

Are not some local authorities trying to ginger up the Government?

28. Sir Cyril Entwistle

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of the great difficulty in practising the population of our cities and towns in black-outs after the beginning of summer time, it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to instruct all local authorities to undertake such practices before summer time begins on 16th April?

Sir J. Anderson

No, Sir, I do not consider that any such instruction is necessary. I have no doubt that local authorities are fully alive to the need of arranging practice black-outs, where they have not already done so; and that they also realise the desirability of avoiding the shorter nights during the summer. But I see no practical value in attempting to fix any date after which such black-outs should not take place.

Sir C. Entwistle

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that continental countries attach great importance to this question and that numerous practices are necessary to secure efficiency? Is it not a fact that no large industrial town in this country has yet practised a complete black-out?

Sir J. Anderson

I do not think that is true, but as regards the importance of black-outs, I think my answer fairly indicates that its importance is realised, and it is for that reason, among others, that I do not see my way to adopt the suggestion of a close season.

30. Sir T. Cook

asked the Lord Privy Seal the number of, volunteers so far enlisted in the Auxiliary Fire Service, and the total number required?

Sir J. Anderson

I have arranged for full returns to be furnished of the total numbers enrolled up to 18th February in all the various services included under the National Service campaign. The collation of these returns will, I hope, be completed by 28th February, and perhaps my hon. Friend will renew his question after that date.

31. Commander Marsden

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered the cost and efficacy of under ground tubular shelters of similar construction to that now being employed by the London Passenger Transport Board for the underground railways, with a view to providing a quick standardised method of deep shelter, applicable alike to the protection of the public and to the needs of industrial works, factories, shops, and offices?

Sir J. Anderson

All practical suggestions for providing public shelters are at present under examination, and my hon. and gallant Friend's suggestion will be borne in mind.

32. Mr. Jenkins

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is now in a position to give the names of the 12 Regional Com missioners appointed to supervise air-raid precautions activities?

Sir J. Anderson

I hope to be in a position before long to announce the names of the Regional Commissioners to be appointed under the scheme for civil defence.

33. Mr. McEntee

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of his decision to pay a flat rate for whole-time service in war for all air-raid precautions volunteers and for auxiliary firemen of 60s. a week for men and 40s. a week for women, teachers and others whose wages or salaries are paid from public funds and who are accepted as whole-time service volunteers in a capacity other than their normal occupation are to have their wages increased or reduced from their normal scale to those flat rates; and what is to be paid to teachers in charge of children who are evacuated from their home towns?

Sir J. Anderson

The variety of cases that might be covered by the terms of the hon. Member's question is so great that I am afraid I cannot give an answer which would necessarily have a general application. In so far as concerns teachers who may accompany school children evacuated from their home towns, they will be regarded as continuing in their employment as teachers and will continue to receive their salaries accordingly.

Viscountess Astor

Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his suggestion for a flat rate which discriminates very severely against women doing exactly the same work as men air-raid precautions volunteers? Will he reconsider it, as it is going to make trouble for him if he does not?

Sir J. Anderson

I have received no form of representations on this subject so far.

Viscountess Astor

Will the right hon. Gentleman receive them? Will he receive a deputation on the subject?

Sir J. Anderson

I should be glad to receive representations on any subject.

34. Mr. McEntee

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether persons in receipt of State pensions will be permitted to volunteer for whole-time civil defence services; and can he give an assurance that such persons will be paid the full flat rate of pay fixed by his Department without deductions from their pensions during a war period?

Sir J. Anderson

I assume the hon. Member has in mind civil servants who have retired on pension. Such persons would normally be at least 60 years of age and would not, in general, be eligible for whole-time civil defence service. The second part of the question would not, therefore, appear to arise.

Mr. McEntee

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that at the time of the Great War civil servants who had only just retired were asked to return to their posts or similar posts in the Civil Service, and they were told they could do so only on condition that they dropped their pension and received the ordinary wage, and having earned their pension, they considered they were entitled to it?

Sir J. Anderson

The practice to which the hon. Member refers is a well-established general practice.

35. Sir John Mellor

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered the terms of a resolution carried unanimously at a meeting of 140 head wardens, senior wardens, and their deputies, held on 19th February, to consider the proposed re organisation of the air-raid warden service in the Solihull Urban District; that, contrary to his desire expressed in Circular 9 of 1939, the Warwickshire County Council has removed the wardens in the Solihull Urban District from the control of the chief constable; and whether, in view of the desire of these wardens to remain under the control of the chief constable, he will make appropriate representations to the Warwickshire County Council?

Sir J. Anderson

I am aware of the difficulties which have arisen in Warwickshire over the organisation of air-raid wardens, though I have not received any resolution from the Solihull area. If the county council wish to adopt a system of control otherwise than under the chief constable, which is the arrangement at present approved, it is open to them, under the Circular referred to, to make representations to me, and I shall consider the position fully in the light of their representations.

Sir J. Mellor

Would my right hon. Friend be prepared to receive a deputation from these wardens in order that he might more fully appreciate the facts and the strength of feeling on this subject?

Sir J. Anderson

I think I had better first have representations in writing. So far I have had none.

36. Mr. Doland

asked the Lord Privy Seal at what period will the persons who are not receiving steel shelters free of charge be able to place orders to purchase; and will the price charged be the same as that paid by the Government?

Sir J. Anderson

Until the local authorities have completed the survey for the free distribution of the Government steel shelters, I cannot indicate when supplies will be available for sale. As regards the second part of the question, the Government do not propose to seek any profit from the sale of these shelters.

Mr. Westwood

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they can make shelters to-day with material other than steel, and that no real encouragement is being given to the production of that particular type of shelter?

Sir J. Anderson

I do not know about that.

Mr. Westwood

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a fortnight ago I sent him a communication and that a week ago I saw him personally, and that up to the moment I have received no confirmation and no action has been taken by him?

Sir J. Anderson

I think the hon. Gentleman knows quite well that the matter about which he communicated with me involves technical considerations, and I assured him that what he had put before me would at once be subjected to the necessary technical examination. I have not failed to keep my promise.

37. Mr. Johnston

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is prepared to encourage local authorities in certain crowded areas in the potential danger zones to construct forthwith underground air-raid shelters which could be used in peace time as underground car-parks?

Sir J. Anderson

I would refer the right hon. Gentleman to the reply which I gave on 2nd February to the hon. Member for Central Bradford (Mr. Leach).

Mr. Johnston

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this would have a great effect on the unemployment situation, and is he aware that this is the one form of Air-Raid Precautions which might yield an economic return to the community?

Sir J. Anderson

As I made clear in the answer to which I have referred, these matters are under consideration, but I think I ought to add that proposals for shelters must be considered primarily from the point of view of their value as shelters.

Mr. Lawson

Why is it that the Government are so long in arriving at a decision about this matter?

Sir J. Anderson

There will be an opportunity for a Debate on the matter next week.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Can the right hon. Gentleman say when he hopes to be able to give an answer to those councils which have sent in plans for shelters?

Sir J. Anderson

I cannot say at the moment, but I shall be prepared to deal with the matter fully next week.

Mr. Mathers

In considering these matters, is the right hon. Gentleman making endeavours to obtain reliable information as to the experiences in Spain?

Sir J. Anderson

Certainly, Sir.

38. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the vacancies in the Air-Raid Precautions inspectorate are to be filled by nomination from the ranks of Civil Service clerical officers, or whether the vacancies will be thrown open for application by all qualified clerical officers?

Sir J. Anderson

As regards appointments to these posts from within the Government Service, a number of Departments were invited to nominate suitably qualified candidates, and their recommendations have included a number of clerical officers. Most of the vacancies have now been filled.

Mr. Gallacher

Does this mean that qualified clerical officers outside those ranks will not be allowed an opportunity of applying for such posts as are open?

Sir J. Anderson

The number of posts open is comparatively small, but the large Departments were invited to submit recommendations, and the fact that these appointments were to be made was certainly generally known in the Civil Service. I think we may be quite sure that no one has been prevented from applying through a failure to make known what was being done.

Mr. Gallacher

In view of the fact that many very highly qualified clerical workers are outside employment altogether, would it not be desirable, when there is an opportunity, to give them a chance of applying for such posts?

Sir J. Anderson

The hon. Member's question relates to Civil Service clerical officers.

Mr. Gallacher

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. May I draw your attention to the fact that I wrote down this question several days ago, and that the Minister has not read the question, and says that the question refers to clerks in the Civil Service, whereas it reads: "whether the vacancies in the air-raid precautions inspectorate are to be filled by nomination from the ranks of the Civil Service clerical officers, or whether——

Mr. Speaker

The question is on the Paper, and every hon. Member can read it.

Mr. Gallacher

Further to my point of Order. If everybody can read it, why is it that the Minister says my question refers to clerks employed in the Civil Service, when it refers to clerks outside the Civil Service?

Mr. Speaker

I cannot be responsible for what the Minister answers.

39. Mr. Pilkington

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he will grant allowances for each child as regards the provision of air-raid precautions shelters, in view of the fact that a family earning £260 with one or two children is substantially worse off financially than a couple earning £240 with no children?

Sir J. Anderson

I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Hertford (Sir M. Sueter) on 16th February. For the reasons which I indicated then, I cannot undertake that the standard of income will be reconsidered.

Mr. Pilkington

Does my right hon. Friend realise that the present regulations actually penalise a family with one or two children, and, in view of that, will he reconsider his decision?

Lieut.-Colonel Heneage

Will not my right hon. Friend consider also the cases where children are sent into an area from an evacuated area, and may be lodging with people who are above this income rate, and who would have to take a great many more children?

Sir J. Anderson

I do not think the distribution of shelter extends, at any rate at present, to areas which will serve as reception areas in the event of evacuation. As regards the first supplementary question, I am afraid I can only say that wherever the line is drawn, there must be some hard cases, and the criterion now adopted was not arrived at without the fullest consideration.

Mr. Pilkington

Cannot my right hon. Friend draw the line so that it does not penalise the children?

43. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether, in view of the fact that civilian respirators are intended only for use during the time necessary to get to a gas-proof room, and that the standard new shelters are not gas-proof, he proposes to make any alterations to the standard civilian respirators?

Sir J. Anderson

It is not the case that the civilian respirator is intended for use only during the time necessary to get to a gas-proof room. It gives full protection for much longer periods against all war gases.

Mr. Gallacher

Is it not understood that it is for a very temporary period that it gives protection, and as it may be that people will be in a shelter quite a long time before gas comes to them, will the right hon. Gentleman not consider some further and better method of dealing with the question of gas?

Sir J. Anderson

I think the period for which protection is given is a good deal longer than the hon. Member supposes, but I might say that experiment is continually going on in regard to the development of types of respirators.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Has the right hon. Gentleman given any guidance to householders with regard to the gas-proofing of the new steel shelters?

Sir J. Anderson

No, Sir. It is not at present contemplated that such steel shelters, which will probably be occupied for a relatively short time, should be gas-proof.

52. Mr. R. C. Morrison

asked the Lord Privy Seal the Government's policy with regard to the erection of the steel air-raid shelters now being delivered, and whether local authorities have permission to under take erection and to engage unemployed labour for this purpose?

Sir J. Anderson

The policy of the Government in this matter is set out in the circular which has been issued to the local authorities concerned. I am sending the hon. Member a copy. The local authorities are empowered to erect and sink the shelters and to engage any labour required for this purpose through the Employment Exchanges.

53. Mr. Charles Williams

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he has considered the petition sent him by a body describing itself as The United Ratepayers' Advisory Association on the question of billeting in connection with evacuation; and whether he can give any information to the House as to the reply he made?

Sir J. Anderson

I have not received such a petition, but I understand that my right hon. Friend the Minister of Health has received, from various sources, a number of forms of petition issued over the name of this body. The scheme for compulsory and indiscriminate billeting against which the document protests bears no resemblance to the evacuation plans on which the Government are at present working, the primary aim of which is to provide for the reception of children and mothers as far as practicable under voluntary arrangements. The information which is being given to householders by the local authorities who are conducting the survey will, I hope, remove any misapprehension which may have been produced by the circulation of this document.

Mr. Williams

Is my right hon. Friend aware that this kind of effort is causing great dislike of the methods which are sometimes being used against those who are doing everything in their power to make it safe for our children in time of war wherever they come from?

Sir J. Anderson

Yes, Sir, but I regret that it is not possible for the Government to put a stop to every form of mischievous activity.

54. Mr. Dobbie

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is now in a position to answer the communication referred to him by the Minister of Labour on 16th February with reference to air-raid shelters, and which was later on presented to him in a communication from the hon. Member for Rotherham on 13th February, and why that communication was not acknowledged?

Sir J. Anderson

I take it that the hon. Member refers to a request which he made to my right hon. Friend that he should receive a deputation to discuss certain proposals of the Rotherham Borough Council in regard to air-raid shelters, and to a similar request which he made directly to me in a further letter dated the 13th February. The receipt of that further letter was not acknowledged because the hon. Member had already had an acknowledgment from my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour indicating that his request was already under my consideration. I shall be glad to arrange for a deputation to be received; but I may point out to the hon. Member that, since he first approached my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour, a responsible official of the borough has had an interview with officials of the Air-Raid Precautions Department at which these proposals were discussed generally at some length and more specific plans are now awaited.

Mr. Thorne

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it advisable that the Cabinet should come to a decision about these shelters at the earliest opportunity?

Sir J. Anderson

No time is being lost in completing the examination of what is a very difficult and complicated problem.

55. Mr. Shinwell

asked the Lord Privy Seal whether he is aware that no work-is proceeding in the completion of air-raid trenches in several parks and commons in South London; and why the work is being held up?

Sir J. Anderson

If the hon. Member will inform me which open spaces he has in mind I will ascertain what is causing the delay. So far as my Department is concerned, local bodies were given full authority to proceed as long ago as the middle of November.

Mr. Shinwell

Did not the right hon. Gentleman inform me last week that the work was in progress; and is he aware that on Wandsworth Common, Tooting Common and Clapham Common the work is still incomplete and that nothing is being done?

Sir J. Anderson

I understood that the hon. Gentleman's question last week related to the position generally, and not to any particular area. It is true that work is in progress in many places. If the hon. Member will give me particulars privately I will be glad to look into them.

Mr. Shinwell

Are we to understand from that answer that all the details are not in possession of the right hon. Gentleman and that work is incomplete without the right hon. Gentleman being informed?

Sir J. Anderson

What the hon. Gentleman is to understand is that in a matter which under the law is in the discretion of the local authorities, it has not hitherto been the policy of the Department to keep badgering local authorities as to whether they are discharging their duties.

Mr. Shinwell

May not then the interests of the general public in this matter fall between two stools—the right hon. Gentleman's Department and the local authorities?

Mr. Thorne

Does not the right hon. Gentleman think it an absolute waste of labour to work on these trenches until the Cabinet come to a decision on the matter?

Sir J. Anderson

As far as the trenches are concerned, a decision was arrived at before the middle of November.