CLAUSE 4.—(References to tribunal of inquiry.) (Hansard, 14 February 1939)

§ The Solicitor-General (Sir Terence O'Connor)
I beg to move, in page 5, line 2, after "of," to insert "the service of."
This is a drafting Amendment and has reference to the service of notice of the intention of the Board of Trade to refuse or revoke a licence. The object is to ensure that the 14 days referred to in the Sub-section shall be from the date of the service of the notice, and not from the actual issue of the notice.

§ The Solicitor-General
I beg to move, in page 5, line 18, to leave out from "chairman," to the end of line 20, and to insert: and one other person appointed by the Lord Chancellor being members of the legal profession, and one person appointed by the 1600 Treasury, being a person who appears to the Treasury to be experienced in matters of finance or accountancy and not being a person in His Majesty's service. A person appointed to the tribunal shall be appointed to be a member thereof for a specified period not being less than three years, subject to such conditions with respect to the vacation of his office in the event of his incapacity or resignation as may be imposed before the time of his appointment; and a person ceasing to hold office as a member of the tribunal shall be eligible for re-appointment thereto. In the Bill the proposal is that the tribunal of inquiry should consist of a chairman who shall be a member of the legal profession, appointed by the Lord Chancellor and two persons appointed by the Treasury. In Committee a wish was expressed that this legal representation might be extended, and the Amendment has that effect. Instead of only one member, the Chairman, being nominated by the Lord Chancellor, under the Amendment the chairman and one other member of the tribunal will be appointed by the Lord Chancellor and will be members of the legal profession. In addition, the tribunal which is to make these inquiries will have one member appointed by the Treasury being a person who appears to the Treasury to be experienced in matters of, finance and accountancy, and, what is not unimportant, he must not be a person in His Majesty's service.
The purpose of these conditions is to deal with the objections which were raised by various members of the Committee including the hon. Member for Hastings (Mr. Hely Hutchinson) and the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The opinion was expressed in Committee that the tribunal should be kept as free as possible from executive influence and on that point I would emphasise what my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade said upstairs. We could never concede for a moment that an appointment made by the Lord Chancellor would, in the ordinary sense, be an appointment made by the Government of the day. If that were so it would be a negation of the duties which the Lord Chancellor has to perform in the appointment of judges, magistrates and others. In practice, the Treasury will consult the appropriate financial and accountancy interests before giving their approval to the appointment of the other member of the tribual. The second part of the Amendment is designed to meet a suggestion of my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon 1601 (Mr. H. G. Williams) that there should be some security of tenure for the members of the tribunal. I think it can be said that the Amendment meets nearly all the points that were brought to our notice in Committee in this connection.

§ Mr. Leach
Would a city treasurer be accounted as being in the service of His Majesty?

§ The Solicitor-General
No, I think not.

§ Mr. Spens
If we must have an independent tribunal for this purpose, the constitution proposed in the Amendment is an immense improvement on the original proposal in the Bill. But I wish to take this opportunity to repeat my protest against independent tribunals being set up to deal with disputes between members of the public and the executive. To my mind, everything which I said on Second Reading in criticism of this Clause stands good. I cannot see why matters in dispute between the executive and the subject should not go to the one really independent tribunal which has been established for centuries, namely, His Majesty's courts of law.

Mr. Johnston
For our part we say, "Let every trade union stand up for its own rights" and the hon. and learned Gentleman is, no doubt, right in putting in a plea for his own profession.

§ Mr. Spens
For the courts of law, which is quite a different matter.

Mr. Johnston
We hold other views about the handing over of everything to gentlemen who have passed the Bar examinations, eaten so many dinners and walked so many yards up and down the Floor of Parliament House. We believe there are other qualifications for dealing with these matters than a knowledge of Roman or canonical law. Therefore, to the extent that the Government have accepted the suggestion that there should be someone on this tribunal with special knowledge of finance, we welcome it, and we would have accepted the tribunal in the Bill because of the speed and cheapness with which it could act. I would beg the hon. and learned Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) to remember that the purpose of the Bill is to catch rogues quickly. It is not to provide what one of my hon. Friends described as a 1602 circumlocutory method of delaying proceedings. In the past, rogues have discovered ways and means of using the courts of law for purposes of delay.
I can give the hon. and learned Gentleman one instance. A share-pushing rogue, arrested in Edinburgh, secured repeated adjournments until he had spun out the time to 14 months. Then the mischief had been done and he disappeared, and the Lord Advocate came to the conclusion that it would be a waste of public money to proceed further against him. We do not want a repetition of that kind of thing. Judges' rules are very proper for the protection of the subject in ordinary matters, but the whole purpose of the Bill is to enable us to act quickly. There will be on the tribunal two nominees of the Lord Chancellor who, in effect, will be judges, plus a member skilled in matters of finance. It will be a tribunal capable of acting speedily and cheaply, and I do not see why the hon. and learned Gentleman should protest any further. Let us get on with the job of stopping these rogues.

§ Mr. Benson
I have a good deal of sympathy with the protest of the hon. and learned Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens). It is true, as my right hon. Friend has said, that time is frequently of the essence of the contract in trying to catch these rogues, but I think it could be argued on similar lines, that every form of crime should be dealt with effectively and speedily. It is always possible to put up a special case in special circumstances, but the broad and general legal position in this country is that the administration of the law and the decision of legal points in relation to all crimes should be in the hands of a judge who is irremovable, at any rate, save by Resolution of the Houses of Parliament. Here we have a tribunal appointed for three years. There is a definite cleavage of interest in one respect between the subject and the Crown, and it may be that the balance of advantage is on the side of the procedure adopted in the Amendment, but I do not want this procedure to be adopted without some protest and some warning of the danger if it should become the common practice.

§ The Solicitor-General
I beg to move, in page 5, line 36, to leave out "hear or".