§ Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.
§ [Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That, for the purpose of any Act of the present Session to authorise the Treasury to repay to the Bank of England sums advanced by that bank to the National Bank of Czechoslovakia together with interest thereon and to enable effect to be given to two agreements copies whereof were laid before this House on the thirty-first day of January nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, namely,—
it is expedient to authorise—
§ 5.36 p.m.
§ Captain WallaceThe Committee will be sufficiently familiar with the general principles of the Bill and with the arrangements which will be authorised by this Financial Resolution, and I do not propose again to go over those general questions which were discussed at fairly considerable length and with a great deal of sincerity in the House only two days ago. Naturally, the Committee would like me to explain briefly how the Resolution carries out the various provisions in the Bill. The sum of£10,000,000 has been advanced by the Bank of England to the National Bank of Czecho-Slovakia. That is the foundation of the whole business. Paragraph (i) of the Resolution authorises the repayment of this sum to the Bank of England by the Treasury, together with interest at 1 per cent. per annum from the dates on which the bank advanced this sum to the date when the Treasury repays it. Of course, that cannot be done until the Bill has received the Royal Assent.
The money will be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and Paragraph (ii) is simply a machinery provision, in a form which will be familiar to hon. Gentlemen, giving the Treasury power to raise money for this purpose. Both paragraphs (i) and (ii) of the Resolution relate to Clause 1 of the Bill.
When the advance has been repaid by the Treasury to the Bank of England, the Czecho-Slovak Government will regard it as having been advanced to them by His Majesty's Government, and they 1192 will, therefore, be indebted to His Majesty's Government for£10,000,000, together with the amount of the interest which we shall have paid to the Bank of England. Paragraph (iii) which relates to Clause 2 (1) of the Bill gives the Government authority to release the Government of Czecho-Slovakia from any liability in regard to£4,000,000 of the£10,000,000; that is, in fact, the free gift to which reference was made two days ago. The£6,000,000 which will still remain outstanding from the capital amount advanced will be repaid to His Majesty's Government by the Czecho-Slovak Government out of the proceeds of the Guaranteed Loan as soon as they are received, together with interest at 1 per cent. per annum for the period between the date of repayment by the Treasury to the Bank of England and the date of repayment by the Czecho-Slovak Government to the Treasury when they have got the proceeds of their loan. The Czechoslovak Government will also repay to His Majesty's Government, from the same source, the interest of 1 per cent. per annum on the original£10,000,000 which the Treasury will have paid to the Bank under the arrangement authorised by paragraph (i) of this Resolution. Paragraph (v) authorises the payment into the Exchequer of the sums which His Majesty's Government will receive under these arrangements and the application of them for the redemption of debt.
The only paragraph which I have not yet mentioned, paragraph (iv), which refers to Clause 2 (2) of the Bill, authorises the payment out of the Consolidated Fund of any sums for which His Majesty's Government may become liable under the guarantee which is to be granted under that Clause; that is, in respect of the loan which is to be raised in London by the Czecho-Slovak Government as soon as possible and which is to be jointly and severally guaranteed by His Majesty's Government and the French Government. Paragraph (iv) provides also for the payment into the Exchequer of any sums which may be received as repayment to His Majesty's Government of payments made under the guarantee; that is, in the event, which we hope and believe will never happen, of the French Government and His Majesty's Government becoming liable at some period for payments under this joint and several guarantee, it would enable the Exchequer to be paid back without 1193 coming to the House again with another Financial Resolution. In view of the Debate which has already taken place on the Bill, I hope that hon. Members will not think I am treating them perfunctorily in thus confining my explanation to what I may call the bare bones of the Financial Resolution.
§ 5.43 p.m.
§ Mr. David GrenfellThe right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Financial Secretary to the Treasury has explained, I am sure to the satisfaction of the Committee, the Financial Resolution now before us. He need not have apologised for presenting the skeleton to us, for it is the skeleton that we wish to see, and not the softer clothing that is sometimes wrapped round this subject. The House has assumed an obligation, and I am sure that nobody looks upon this skeleton with any considerable fear or disturbance. The provision is not a large one, and its application is fully understood. A day or two ago, hon. Members on this side came to the conclusion that they would not divide the House on the Bill, and I do not propose now to cavil or quarrel about the Financial Resolution. However, I think the Committee is entitled to have a few more details as to the way in which control will be exercised at various stages over the dispensation of the funds to be provided. We know that the machinery is strictly in accord with the intentions of the House and that there will be a very strict control with regard to the expenditure and the distribution of the money to be applied for these purposes.
It is intended to finance the emigration from Czecho-Slovakia of a large number of people who are destitute and homeless, and who must make a new start in life far from the land of their birth and the land in which they have established claims of citizenship and domicile. Some of these people are in this country, and I am sure that hon. Members will be relieved to know that not only is this financial provision being made, but that also an organisation is being built up which will give full effect to the purposes of the loan with regard to emigration. These things depend very much upon the kind of organisation which we ourselves are able to maintain. In passing, I make this plea that Members of the House should play their part in making this organisation as effective as possible. With effective 1194 organisation, we can see that this loan is spent to the fullest advantage for the purposes for which it is intended. As I say, an organisation is now being built up and people in this House and outside it have joined in taking the necessary steps to provide means of transport and settlement for the considerable numbers of refugees involved. I would extend a very wide invitation to all Members to take an interest in seeing that this work is properly carried out. If that be done, I believe we shall find that no mistake has been made by us in providing this sum for purposes in which we should be interested as much as anybody—purposes which will be to the benefit of the people of this country as much as to the advantage of the direct objects of the expenditure.
With regard to road-making and other forms of expenditure in Czecho-Slovakia, reference was made the other day to changes in the frontiers of that State. We would like to know whether the frontiers have now been stabilised so that there will be no further changes to the detriment of this small people. I am expressing a personal view when I hope that changes may be made to the advantage of the remaining portion of Czecho-Slovakia, but that is not a subject for discussion to-day. Considerable inconvenience and onerous injustices have been caused to this small people by the disabilities arising out of changes in the frontier line. These have called for considerable readjustments in the local, national and economic life of the people. There are cases where, in a journey of 40 or 50 miles, the frontier has to be traversed 12 or 14 times. There have been some most ridiculous changes to the complete disadvantage of the Czechoslovak people, and with only strategic advantages to those who are masters in these territories now. It is highly important that some of this money should be spent in rectifying the transport difficulties which have ensued upon changes affecting both roads and railways. The amount is so small that probably nothing could be done to meet the difficulties in connection with railway transport, but with a sum of£4,000,000, or possibly£6,000,000, properly supervised and watched, much could be done in the way of making new roads and deviations and straightening and adjusting roads which have been affected by the contortions of 1195 the new frontier. A considerable amount might be done at the expense of building, say, five or six miles of road, to improve the general utility of a road 50 or 60 miles long.
I know something of these frontiers from having seen them and having examined the maps as they were being changed from day to day. Indeed, I think that the busiest industry in Czechoslovakia in October last was that of the cartographers. Maps were being made and re-made to conform with changes which were being made daily and almost hourly outside the city of Prague itself. Inside a few days all kinds of different colours appeared on the same old background. One had only to live in the atmosphere of Prague in those days to realise what tremendous inconvenience geographically, topographically and economically was being caused to the people who became the subjects of those changes. I express the hope with some confidence that the control to be exercised over this loan will be effective. The Financial Secretary has disclosed to us the skeleton of the main proposals, but he has left as yet undisclosed the skeleton of the scheme for administration. That we have not examined as closely as we might have, but I feel sure, having regard to the general form of the scheme of control, as we know it, that it will not be possible to dissipate the loan in any unnecessary or wasteful expenditure. If this money is spent as I think it might be spent, under proper control and direction, I do not think there is any reason why we on this side of the House should express any disapproval of the Resolution.
§ 5.50 p.m.
§ The ChairmanBefore the Debate proceeds any further I ought to give expression to a difficulty which arose in my mind while the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) was speaking. We are now dealing with a new practice. This is a case in which previously a Bill would have been founded upon a Financial Resolution. Under the practice which obtained until recently, the Financial Resolution would have been taken first and all those matters to which the hon. Member has referred—and which are not referred to in the Resolution, though they are germane to it—would have been proper subjects for discussion on the Financial Resolution. In this case, 1196 those matters have already been discussed fully on the Second Reading of the Bill. In discussing this Resolution, therefore, the Committee are fully aware of all those matters which are set out in the Bill itself, and which have been not only discussed, but approved on Second Reading. Therefore, though I give my Ruling with some hesitation, on a new point which I have not had time to consider, I think I must rule that under the new procedure in cases of this kind the only subjects which can be debated are those which come definitely within the terms of the Resolution, and that the Debate cannot extend to other matters which were proper subjects of discussion on the Second Reading, and would have been proper subjects for discussion on the Financial Resolution, if it had been taken before the Bill was introduced. But these other matters not covered by the Resolution, and discussed on the Second Reading, cannot now be debated again.
§ 5.53 p.m.
§ Mr. ManderI shall, of course. Sir Dennis, observe your Ruling, and I do not think it would be useful after the full Debate of Tuesday to go over the same ground again. There are just one or two points which I wish to mention. The first arises out of the events of the last few months. While it may be that he who gives quickly gives twice, apparently we may take it that he who gives slowly only gives one-seventh, because that, in effect, has been the result of delay in this case when we consider the sum which we are invited to vote now compared with the former figure of£30,000,000. The Prime Minister says that he regrets nothing that has happened in the last few months, but it is very difficult for anyone else to feel the same satisfaction with regard to the matter which is dealt with in this Resoluton. However, we have got a very substantial sum here compared with what is available in the cases of other refugees. We have a sum of£4,000,000 for dealing with the 10,000 or 15,000 or 20,000 refugees from Czecho-Slovakia, and undoubtedly it will be possible to render those people substantial assistance. Further, it will be a precedent and will provide experience which should be useful in relation to efforts made for other refugees. Therefore, one cannot help feeling glad that such a sum is available for this purpose.
1197 It would clearly be out of order to make any reference to the French part of the loan, but I hope I may be allowed to ask the Minister who replies, to say whether the financial arrangements which are being made with the French Government for taking over responsibility for the Czech loan, will facilitate the placing of money at the disposal of the Czech Government for dealing with refugees. It is obvious that the difficulties of distinguishing between what will and will not be useful to Germany from a military or an economic point of view will be immense. Those in control and the liaison officer will have a very difficult task to perform. The Czech Government, as was said the other day, are obliged to do what they are told, but I am sure of this. Whatever effect intensive propaganda may have on people of German race in persuading them to accept a particular regime, no kind of propaganda, however long-continued, will have any effect on the minds of the Czech people. I believe that they will keep alive their own ideals until the moment comes, which they hope will not be long in coming, when the hideous nightmare of Nazi-ism will be brought to an end once and for all.
§ 5.56 p.m.
§ Mr. BoothbyWhile I had wished for something on a larger scale than this Resolution, I agree with the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) that it cannot do any good to minimise this sum. The refugee problem in Europe is so formidable to-day that it is difficult to know how we are to deal with it in the long run. Clearly, we shall have to make these efforts for several years ahead and in so far as we have had direct action by the British Government, this sum undoubtedly represents a greater contribution to a particular refugee problem than has been made by any Government since the question arose. We ought to recognise that if this sum is properly administered—and I agree with the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) that we must all join in an effort to see that it is properly administered—it will be a great contribution to the solution of an extremely difficult problem.
I would repeat what I said on the Second Reading. I do not think it does any good to Czecho-Slovakia or anybody else to keep on saying that she is merely a vassal State of Germany and in complete subservience. The Czecho-Slovak 1198 State has given a wonderful demonstration of courage, discipline and unity during the last six months, and I do not subscribe to the view that there is not a considerable future before that State. I would like the Financial Secretary when he replies to give us one assurance. He cannot, of course, commit the Government to lending any more money, but I hope he will commit them to doing everything in their power on the commercial side, to help Czecho-Slovakia in respect of the trade in the difficult years which lie immediately ahead. I hope it will be made clear that the Government regard Czecho-Slovakia not as a sort of lost cause, but as a very industrious country, which has put up a great show during the last few years and with which we may expect in the future to do a profitable and growing trade. The Czechs were compelled to submit to certain military disadvantages arising out of the strategic situation in Central Europe, but that does not mean that we should regard their cause as hopeless. This Resolution makes a substantial contribution to dealing with the particular problem of refugees which oppresses them at the moment, and I hope that it is the intention of the Government to go further and do everything in their power in the future, to help Czecho-Slovakia to maintain a free and independent economic life in Europe.
§ 6.0 p.m.
§ Sir J. SimonWe have had a short though useful Debate, and I find myself very much in the spirit of the observations which have been made by others who have taken part in it. I am very glad indeed that my hon. Friend the Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) should have asked that we should really look at this contribution with some sense of proportion. It is in fact a most material contribution. This is an age when it becomes so easy to talk about millions that we do not perhaps realise quite how much a million is. I am sure, having examined this particular Czechoslovak refugee problem with some care, that the contribution which is being made—made at the expense of the British people—and the contribution which is being made by the French Government too, is one which is very substantial; and we serve no useful purpose at all if we do not insist that it is a really 1199 substantial help, given very willingly, but given in very difficult times.
The question asked by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander), in regard to the White Paper, apparently was not sufficiently answered by my speech on Tuesday. The contribution made by the French Government is, by the express terms of the agreement as printed in the White Paper, to be devoted to the help of the refugees under arrangements which correspond to the arrangements which we have made. Of course, the British liaison officer is only entitled to concern himself with the British contribution, but my hon. Friend will find that stated in Dr. Pospisil's letter on page II of the White Paper:
as regards the amounts in francs which will become available to the Czecho-Slovak Government as a result of the assumption by the French Government of responsibility for the interest service of the 5 per cent. Bonds 1937–42. the provisions of Annex IV to this letter will apply in addition to those of paragraph 3 of the present letter.Turning over, he will find, on page 13, in Annex II:The amount in francs which the Czechoslovak Government would have had to provide for the interest service of the 5 per cent. Bonds 1937–42, if the French Government had not assumed responsibility therefor, will be utilised for the same purposes as the allocation under paragraph 1 (a) above.I think we may feel sure that our friends in France have been as careful to secure that the money is properly used as we have been ourselves.I would like, if I might, to associate myself with what was said by the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell) when he spoke about interesting ourselves in this matter. I think we ought to regard this effort which we are co-operatively making as an effort which, I believe, is going to help in this most terribly sad situation. Only to-day I opened two letters from people whose identity is unknown to me, who have come from that country, showing a most tragic interest in the question whether this provision will help the writers' son and wife. One of the letters can have been sent to me for no other reason as far as I can see, except that the person who writes to me bears the same name as I do, as if that would make some sort of appeal.
I think everybody here ought to feel that our responsibility is not discharged because we have voted a sum of money.
1200 We have selected a very experienced gentleman, whose acquaintance with financial questions gives him very special qualities, to go to Prague and to act for the British Government. I know him well and have had many talks with him on the subject, and so have my officials in the Treasury, and I am sure that Mr. Stopford—that is his name—is going to discharge his duty in Prague most ably, as far as one man can. He will be in constant communication with us here, and his reports will come to us, and we shall at least have an opportunity of knowing what his difficulties are and how he is getting on. I think I was justified in saying the other day that the White Paper showed that we really had been able to work out in much more detail than might have been expected the way in which this money should be used, and, of course, we intend to do our utmost in the matter. I agree that it is of real importance that it should go out from this House and Committee that we make this provision believing that it will be carefully used for the purposes for which it was intended and that we make it with complete good will and in the confidence that the Czecho-Slovak State is a State which, passing through a difficult phase, none the less has a determination to live and provide for its own population. I should like there to go out from this House and Committee an expression of our real sympathy, and we are entitled to speak of our sympathy in this matter, because we are putting down good hard money to try and do something to make that sympathy good.
Miss RathboneBefore the right hon. Gentleman resumes his seat, will he clear up one point? Will Mr. Stopford or anyone here have any control over the choice and priority of those refugees who benefit by this money? What I mean is this: It is well known that there are degrees of urgency. There are certain groups of refugees who are in much more serious danger and living under much more distressed conditions than others. Hitherto, since the British Committee over here have had to put up all the money for bringing these people over, they have naturally had the choice of those people, and they have made that choice in correspondence with the committees of different groups of refugees in Prague, but I do not quite understand how that will be in future, whether it is to be de- 1201 cided over here or by the committees in Prague that there are certain lists of people who ought to be got out as quickly as possible. Is there any security that those people will be got out and that people may not be given preference here, people who will be able to pull strings or for some other reason, who are in less danger and in less need of getting out, but who have more favour with the Czech Government? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us a little about how these refugees who will benefit by this sum will be selected?
§ Sir J. SimonI think the hon. Lady is referring to that part of the problem which it is hoped to deal with by the method of emigration?
§ Sir J. SimonWe believe that the money provision that has been made will enable emigrants to leave promptly as they acquire, if they can acquire, permission to go elsewhere. It is no good saying "Here is the money; you may go," until the individual knows where he is going to, and the settlement of this question, I would have expected, would be to a large extent the cause of anxiety and delay. I think the arrangements are such that we may be sure that there will not be what my hon. Friend calls preference to give people a chance of going who are in no great anxiety and leaving others behind who are in greater peril. I think the influence that is exercised at the other end, where the permission has to be obtained, together with the presence of Mr. Stopford in Prague, will certainly secure that this matter is administered in due order. We must show respect for and confidence in the authority of the Czech Government, and we cannot treat the Czech Government as if it were under tutelage. We are doing our best, in cooperation with the Czech Government, to do what is right by individuals as far as we can.
I feel pretty sure—and the hon. Gentleman opposite can speak with greater knowledge of this than I can, because he has been in Prague—that the spirit of this Refugee Institute in Prague, now that it has got more money and now that it has got interests in this country and France watching what it is doing, and now that we have our own representative in Prague, will be all that we could wish, 1202 I think we can assume, and I think we shall get the best out of it by assuming that this task will be carried out without prejudice and with the desire to help the people concerned as quickly as possible.
§ Question put, and agreed to.
§ Resolution to be reported upon Monday next.