CLAUSE 1.—(Power to give guarantees.) (Hansard, 2 February 1939)

§ Mr. Pethick-Lawrence
We had a fairly long and comprehensive Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill, and it is not my wish to make a long speech upon it at this stage. But I know that one or two of my hon. Friends have certain questions which they wish to put to the Secretary for the Overseas Trade Department and before they do so I would ask him to deal with these points. The hon. Gentleman stated on 15th December that there was then something like £6,000,000 available under the old Act for further guarantees. Can he tell us how much of that sum remains? This Bill as regards the normal part of its provisions allows a further £25,000,000 for export guarantees. I know that it is impossible to form a close estimate, but I would like the hon. Gentleman to tell us whether he has any idea how long this provision is likely to last. The increase that was made in the last Act followed very shortly on a previous increase. Does he consider that this new increase will last during the present Session of Parliament and, therefore, presumably, to the end of the present Parliament, or does he think that the increasing use which is being made of these proposals may bring him again to the House in a shorter time than that?

§ Mr. Price
I wish to raise a point which was touched upon in the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill. It is not a matter on which it is very easy to put down Amendments, so I think that on this question of the Clause standing part it might be well to raise it again. Under this Clause the State is giving guarantees for export trade, on which there is general agreement in this House, but I 412 think that if substantial sums of State money are involved, we should consider the conditions under which these guarantees are given. When the State assumes an obligation, I think conditions could be exacted, and this is a very good opportunity for exacting them. First of all, I think it ought to be seen to that where a State guarantee is given for the export of certain goods abroad, the labour conditions in that industry are of a satisfactory nature. The principle has already been observed in municipal and Government contracts, where a Fair Wages Clause is inserted in certain cases, and I think it is desirable to see that the workers in the industry concerned, whether organised or not in trade unions, are given such conditions as are reasonable and satisfactory to those concerned.
But the most important point that I wish to raise is the question of the organisation of export industry taken as a whole. One of the reasons, I think the main reason, why this Bill has been introduced is to meet certain conditions in foreign markets. There is no doubt that one of the reasons why our export trade has been in difficulties in certain markets is the fact that certain States have organised their export trade, not only with State credit and guarantees behind it, but also—

§ The Chairman
I am afraid the hon. Member is going outside the scope of this Clause.

§ Mr. Price
The point that I wished to raise was this: Would it not be possible that the Board of Trade should exact the condition, before granting a guarantee for export trade, that that trade was organised in a union? The mere fact that the Federation of British Industries recently published a statement to the effect that export trade required Government guarantees and that it was not a question so much of organisation, shows what is needed. That is the point that I wish to raise, whether it would not be possible for the Board of Trade to see to it that in the future, where they give such guarantees, industry should be speaking as a whole, that it should be possible for the Board of Trade to speak to the industry as a whole and thereby come under one organisation. I do not see how it is possible for export traders to succeed against the competition of the totalitarian States, in view of the fact—

§ The Chairman
The hon. Member is getting, I should say, outside the limits of this Bill, certainly outside the limits of this Clause.

§ Mr. Price
Those are the two points that I wished to raise, and if they are out of order, I will not press them further, but leave it to the Minister to say whether or not they are matters with which he can deal.

§ Mr. Kingsley Griffith
I wish to take up the point raised by the right hon. Gentleman above the Gangway when he asked how much there was left of the old credit and how long the combined remnant and the new credit now made possible by this Bill are likely to last, because it appears to me that there is one field in particular where there may be very big calls on the fund if the opportunities for it are taken. One knows the conditions that are prevailing in China at the present moment and how gallantly those people are still carrying on their industry, in spite of the hostilities there, and I have heard, on what I believe to be good authority, that there may be railway developments there. There may be an opportunity for British industry to assist in the development, in China, of railways going westward towards Burma, and that may mean a very large call of a very satisfactory kind and of great advantage to both countries. For that reason I am anxious to know whether the sum that is now being provided will really be sufficient for all the calls that may be made upon it.

§ The Chairman
I think it is as well that I should give the Committee a general warning that we cannot discuss this matter now as if it were being dealt with on Second Reading. These points do not arise on this particular Clause, and I must ask the Committee to keep more strictly to what are the appropriate subjects for discussion.

§ Mr. Bellenger
I rise to try and get some information on Sub-section (1) of this Clause, and to ask the Government when they are going to set up the Export Guarantees Advisory Council mentioned in this Sub-section, whether it is to be as soon as this Bill has reached the Statute Book, and how that Council is to be constituted. I asked the right hon. Gentle- 414 man the Secretary for the Overseas Trade Department a question on this matter a month or two ago. He then told me that there had been an Export Advisory Committee in operation for some years past, and he gave me the names of the personnel comprising that Committee. I noticed then that there were hardly any representatives of organised labour or of labour interests at all on that Committee, and I think that, as we are going in for something a little bit different from what has operated in the past, and as we are to have a somewhat different policy, as I understand it, in the future, some greater consideration should be given, when the Advisory Council is formed, to labour interests than has hitherto prevailed on the old Committee.

§ Mr. R. S. Hudson (Secretary, Department of Overseas Trade)
The answer to the question put by the right hon. Member for East Edinburgh (Mr. Pethick-Lawrence), as to how much now remains of the £6,000,000 to which I referred in December, is that our net increase of capital commitments since I spoke in December is of the order of £1,500,000. Over such a short period as a month that may not give a very reliable picture. The right hon. Gentleman asked me how long the increased sum of £75,000,000 would last, but that, of course, largely depends on the extent to which industry takes advantage of it. I think that with the decrease in wholesale prices which has been noted of late, it will probably last rather longer than might have been expected under the old state of affairs which prevailed in 1937. Certainly, we anticipate that it will see us through this Parliament. The hon. Member for the Forest of Dean (Mr. Price) asked whether we could not propose a Fair Wages Clause, but I think that, on reconsideration, he will agree that that falls rather outside the scope of the Bill. He asked also whether it would not be possible to impose certain conditions on industry as a whole, but he will realise too that the guarantee is given to individual firms and not to industry in general. Equally, he will no doubt have seen some speeches that my right hon. Friend the President and I have been making lately, in which we have been trying to do our best to get industry organised.
The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Griffith) asked what would 415 happen to some possible demands for railway and other equipment in China. I think the answer to that question is that the transaction which he probably has in mind, and which I have in mind, is of an order of magnitude and would require terms of credit so long as would hardly fall within the purview of this Bill. If it is finally decided that it is desirable to do something for a project of that nature, I think he may be sure that we shall bring in a special Bill and ask the House to assent to something of the nature, for example, of the credit that we required for Turkey. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (Mr. Bellenger) asked when the new Export Guarantees Advisory Council would be set up. The answer is that it will be set up as soon as the Bill passes into law, and as far as we know at present, it will probably have the same personnel as the existing Advisory Committee, on which there is already a representative appointed after consultation with the Trades Union Congress and also a representative of the Co-operative Wholesale Society. Therefore, I think we may fairly claim that we have taken those interests into account already.