HC Deb 28 November 1938 vol 342 cc5-13
6. Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

asked the Prime Minister what was the numerical strength and composition of the British Diplomatic Mission to the Spanish Government on the outbreak of civil war as compared with to-day; and what are the reasons for no diplomatic officer of ambassadorial rank having been in residence at the seat of the Spanish Government during the civil war?

Mr. Butler

As the reply contains somewhat lengthy lists, I will, with the hon. and gallant Member's permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

Will the hon. Gentleman be good enough to reply to the second part of my question, as to what are the reasons for there being no British Ambassador at the seat of the Spanish Government during the civil war?

Mr. Butler

If the hon. and gallant Member will read the list which I am circulating, he will see that the list of those persons accredited to the Spanish Government is a very full one.

Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

What are the reasons for there being no Ambassador from this country at the seat of the Spanish Government since the outbreak of civil war?

Mr. Butler

As the hon. and gallant Member knows, we have a Minister there.

Mr. Noel-Baker

If the Spanish Government have an Ambassador here, and we still recognise the Spanish Government as the legitimate government of the country, why cannot we have an Ambassador there?

Mr. Butler

The hon. Member will realise that the position at the present moment is that we have representation at Hendaye, taking the place of the old Embassy to Spain, we have a Minister at Barcelona, and we have an Agent at Burgos. This is a special arrangement to meet the exceptional circumstances of the present time.

Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

Is there any precedent for an Ambassador being withdrawn on the outbreak of a rebellion against the Government to which he is accredited?

Following is the answer:

The staff of His Majesty's Embassy in Madrid at the outbreak of the civil war in July, 1936, consisted of 17 persons, that is, the Ambassador, Counsellor, First Secretary, Third Secretary, Honorary Attaché, two Commercial Secretaries, Naval Attaché, Assistant Naval Attaché, Military Attaché, Assistant Military Attaché, Air Attaché, Chaplain, Archivist, Clerical Assistant, and two shorthand typists. His Majesty's present representation to the Spanish Government consists of 19 persons, that is, the Chargé d'Affaires of His Majesty's Embassy at St. Jean de Luz, the Minister at Barcelona, Third Secretary, Honorary Attaché, Consul with local rank of First Secretary at Valencia, Vice-Consul with local rank of Third Secretary at Valencia, Naval Attaché, Assistant Naval Attaché, Military Attaché and two Assistant Military Attachés, Air Attaché, two wireless operators, two clerical assistants and three shorthand typists.

As regards the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to the reply given to the hon. and gallant Member on 5th July, that the present arrangement has appeared to His Majesty's Government to be the most suitable one.

18. Mr. Gallacher

asked the Prime Minister whether, as any warlike or hostile action committed by an armed vessel not bearing the commission of some legally acknowledged State or Government constitutes piracy on the high seas, any notice has been sent to General Franco that the auxiliary vessels flying his flag in the North Sea must be considered as pirates, and treated accordingly by any vessels of His Majesty's Fleet which sight them?

Mr. Butler

The answer is in the negative. In the circumstances of the present case, there is no justification for treating warships commissioned by General Franco's administration as pirates.

Mr. Gallacher

Is the Minister not aware that piracy of this character is forming a very dangerous precedent so far as the British Mercantile Marine is concerned; and does he not consider it necessary, in the interests of the Mercantile Marine, to stop it?

Mr. Butler

I do not accept the hon. Member's suggestion that this constitutes piracy; and I would refer him to a learned book on the subject—Hall's "International Law," 8th edition, page 37.

21. Mr. Sorensen

asked the Prime Minister whether he has any information to give the House respecting an intimation by the Belgian Government that it is willing to assist in mediation, respecting the Spanish war; and whether, in connection with any such mediation, he will give an assurance that the influence of the British Government is directed towards respecting and implementing the repeated insistence of the Spanish peoples on autonomous self-government?

Mr. Butler

According to a Press report which I have seen, the Belgian Prime Minister has stated that he will make a statement on this subject in the Belgian Chamber to-morrow. His Majesty's Government cannot express any views on the matter until they are in possession of further details.

Mr. Attlee

Do the Government depend solely on newspaper reports now for the conduct of foreign affairs?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir. But on occasion, when it is convenient, the Government may refer hon. Members to a newspaper report which will give them the information they desire.

Mr. Sorensen

Will the hon. Member reply to the latter part of the question?

Mr. Butler

Until we hear what the Belgian Prime Minister has to say, I cannot say anything more.

Mr. Sorensen

Will the hon. Member get into touch with the Belgian Prime Minister?

Mr. Butler

I think we must give him a chance to make his speech first.

23. Miss Rathbone

asked the Prime Minister who are the representatives of His Majesty's Government on the commission appointed by the League of Nations to supervise the withdrawal from Spain of the volunteers fighting on the side of the Spanish Government; whether reports have been received from these representatives or from the commission as to the progress of the evacuation; and whether he will ask the commission, if their first report is not ready, to present an interim report before the next meeting of the Non-Intervention Committee?

Mr. Butler

The British members of the Commission are Colonel Molesworth, Captain Oyler and Lieut.-Commander Lloyd. A communiqué, of which I am sending the hon. Lady a copy, was issued at Geneva on 19th November summarising the Commission's activities up to date. My Noble Friend is in consultation with the Secretary-General of the League as to whether it would be possible for the Commission to issue an interim report.

Miss Rathbone

Can the hon. Member say whether the reports, in general, are satisfactory: that evacuation is proceeding as fast as the Commission anticipated?

Mr. Butler

Yes, I can certainly say that.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

Is it not a fact that 1,000 German and Italian volunteers who are fighting on the Spanish Government side dare not return to Germany and Italy?

26. Major-General Sir Alfred Knox

asked the Prime Minister how many foreign combatants have been evacuated from either side in Spain in the last six months, and whether he can give an estimate of the numbers now remaining?

34. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister whether any further Italian troops have been withdrawn from Spain?

Mr. Butler

About 10,000 men were evacuated from General Franco's forces in the middle of October. Nearly 2,500 have now been evacuated from the Spanish Government side, and I understand that a further 1,300 are likely to leave in the very near future. These figures, however, do not cover any isolated persons or groups who, owing to wounds, sickness or other causes, may have been evacuated before the middle of October.

Sir A. Knox

Can the Under-Secretary reply to the latter part of my question, as to how many remain on either side?

Mr. Butler

I could not give an exact estimate.

Mr. Strauss

Has the hon. Member any information as to when the assurance given by the Italian Government that they will withdraw all their troops is to be carried out?

Mr. Butler

That assurance is coupled with the coming into force of the Non-Intervention Plan.

Mr. W. Roberts

What is the reason for the delay in the withdrawal of troops from the Spanish Government side, as I understand they are all ready to leave? Is it the attitude of the British Government?

Mr. Butler

Certainly not. The British Government have given their full cooperation in this matter. If the hon. Member wants further information he should put a question down.

Mr. Gallacher

Is the Minister aware that these volunteers have been waiting nearly two months?

Mr. Strauss

Was not the withdrawal of all the Italian troops made a condition of the ratification of the Anglo-Italian Agreement? If that is so, when will they all be withdrawn?

Mr. Butler

I must refer the hon. Member to my version of the matter.

27. Sir A. Knox

asked the Prime Minister what condition remains to be satisfied before the plan of the Non-Intervention Committee to grant belligerent rights to the combatants in Spain can he put in force?

Mr. Butler

The plan must first be accepted by General Franco, and then "substantial progress," according to a definition agreed upon by the Non-Intervention Committee, must be made in the withdrawal of foreign nationals from both sides.

Sir A. Knox

As 10,000 have already been withdrawn, does my hon. Friend not consider that it would be in the interest of the peace of Europe to grant belligerent rights?

Mr. Butler

That does not correspond with the arrangement reached by the Non-Intervention Committee, considering the number the Spanish Government decided to withdraw.

Mr. Thurtle

Can the hon. Member say why General Franco will not consider the scheme?

Mr. Butler

I cannot answer for General Franco.

28. Mr. A. Henderson

asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the provision in the Non-Intervention Committee Agreement of July, 1937, that there should be no granting of belligerent rights to General Franco until there had been a proportionate withdrawal of foreign volunteers from both sides in Spain, and in view of the fact that all foreign volunteers have been withdrawn from the Spanish Government side, he will give an assurance that His Majesty's Government will oppose the granting of belligerent rights to General Franco unless the whole of the Italian and German troops are previously withdrawn from Spain?

32. Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

asked the Prime Minister what was the decision come to in Paris as to the grant of belligerent rights to General Franco?

The Prime Minister

I have nothing to add to the answer given to similar questions by the hon. Members for East Aberdeen (Mr. Boothby) and Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker) on 21st November. No new decision on the question of granting belligerent rights to General Franco was reached as a result of the conversations which took place during the recent visit to Paris.

Mr. Henderson

Is it not a fact that the Non-Intervention Committee have now determined the conditions upon which foreign volunteers should be withdrawn from Spain; and, in view of that fact and the fact that the Anglo-Italian Agreement is now in force, is it not time for the Italian Government to fulfil their promise and withdraw all their troops from Spain?

Mr. Speaker

That does not arise from the hon. Member's original question.

Mr. Henderson

My supplementary is based on the Non-Intervention Agreement, to which I referred in my original question; and is not my supplementary in order in view of that fact?

Mr. Speaker

The original question was about belligerent rights.

Mr. Henderson

Yes, Sir; but in view of the Non-Intervention Agreement.

33. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister on what grounds does he consider that the defence against deliberate air attacks of British ships discharging food in Spanish Government ports is likely to cause a general European war?

Mr. Butler

The protection of British ships discharging food in Spanish Government ports could only be afforded by stationing anti-aircraft guns on land, or warships in or near the port. As the Prime Minister has pointed out, it is impossible to tell whether any aeroplane is intending to attack a British ship until the attack is delivered, and since to wait until the attack has been delivered would be to deprive the defence of any useful effect, it follows that fire would have to be opened on all approaching aircraft. Action of this kind would, obviously, constitute participation in the defence of the port, and would amount to direct intervention in the civil war with its consequent dangers.

Mr. Strauss

Is it not perfectly easy to tell whether a deliberate attack is being made on British ships by aeroplane, and as many of these attacks are deliberate, surely it will be possible to defend these ships if the Government desire to do so?

Mr. Butler

I think that if the hon. Gentleman will study my answer, he will see that it is not possible to tell what type of attack it is intended to deliver.

Mr. W. Roberts

In view of the fact that the Germans have provided their latest anti-aircraft guns for General Franco, would it not be fair at least to allow the Spanish Government, in spite of non-intervention, to obtain similar weapons?

Mr. Noel-Baker

Do His Majesty's Government still adhere to the view that these attacks against neutral ships are illegal?

Mr. Butler

The position in international law remains as I have frequently stated it.

35. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister whether any Italian or German troops or war materials have arrived in Spain during recent weeks?

Mr. Butler

Such information as has been received would indicate that some assistance has been received from these countries during the last two months.

Mr. Strauss

Does that carry out the recent undertaking given by the Italian Government?

Mr. Butler

I cannot add anything to what the Prime Minister said about the assurances received from Signor Mussolini on this subject and I would refer the hon. Member to the Debate on 2nd November.

Mr. Strauss

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, according to the "Daily Telegraph," 5,000 troops arrived from Italy in September and October, and thousands of pounds worth of war material and 49 aeroplanes; and is it inconvenient to accept the evidence of the "Daily Telegraph" on this occasion?

Mr. Butler

I think the hon. Gentleman must accept such statements with reserve.

Mr. Dalton

Would it not be a good thing to ask Lord Perth to take the matter up with the Italian Government and ascertain what is the truth?

Mr. Butler

We are always in touch with Lord Perth on every sort of subject, but I cannot give an undertaking to communicate with him on this occasion.

Sir P. Harris

Is it not the fact that the Government do not want to obtain the information, and that if they want information they seem to get it quite easily?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir, but I have said constantly that it is quite impossible to give exact information on these matters to the House, and I have given the House what information I can.

Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

Do the Government specifically call for reports on this subject from Spain, or do they content themselves with what reports happen to be sent to them?

Mr. Butler

As I have said, we are quite satisfied with the adequacy of our information and the sources of our information.

Mr. Gallacher

But we are not satisfied.

36. Mr. W. Roberts

asked the Prime Minister whether, as a result of the conversations of Mr. Hemming with General Franco's staff, he has now been able to secure any modification of General Franco's refusal to accept the British plan for the withdrawal of volunteers in Spain?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir.

Mr. Roberts

Can the hon. Gentleman say whether Mr. Hemming is still at Burgos?

Mr. Butler

Mr. Hemming has returned to London.

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