PENSIONS. (Hansard, 20 May 1938)

§ Mr. E. Smith
Reference has already been made to the generous interpretation of Mr. Deputy-Speaker with regard to the scope of these discussions, and I hope that similar generosity will be extended in the case of the question that I want to raise. With one or two of my hon. Friends, I wish to raise the question of the condition of pensioners in this country. I shall deal with the matter briefly, in order to give as many Members 800 of the House as possible the opportunity of taking part in the Debate. I do not expect a reply from the Government, because I have not had an opportunity of giving them notice that I was going to raise this question, but if we in this House are to represent completely the people of this country we have not only to concern ourselves with international affairs, but we have to concern ourselves as well with the affairs of the people to whom we belong. While, as I say, I do not ask for a reply from the Government, I desire to get the matter on the records of the House, in order that all Members of the House may consider what we are raising and that the Government may give attention to the issues involved, and to let the people see that we are trying to represent them here on those issues.
The first question I want to raise is that of the position of old age pensioners. In 1919, after the deputation led by Bobs Millie to the Government, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Car Narvon Boroughs (Mr. Lloyd George) was so impressed that he promised to give consideration to the issues which they raised. He actually saw Bob Smillie himself, and as a result of the conversations which took place, the right hon. Gentleman and one or two others brought the question to the attention of the Cabinet with the result that in 1919 the old age pension was increased from 7s. 6d. to 10s. Between 1920 and 1923, I, along with many of my hon. Friends engaged in industry, saw that there was an enormous increase in production. Then, production was maintained at a certain level. From 1927 to 1937, I have no hesitation in saying, the production per man and woman in industry in this country increased to a greater extent than in most other parts of the world, and particularly in Europe. I remember, in 1927, passing through some very dark days in our movement, and being looked down upon, owing to the fact that a small number of us took a most unpopular view. In 1927, it was suggested at the Trades Union Congress, as a result of what was known as the Economic Report of the Congress, that we should be a party to what were called at that time the Monde-Turner Conferences. They had for their object, increasing production, the carrying through of rationalization and a number of other things. Many of us did not oppose a 801 number of the suggestions. What we said was that as production increased the workpeople should get some of the benefits. We said it was not right that the employers should receive the whole of the benefits, and that if we were to be a party to increasing the productivity of this country every man and woman unemployed as a result ought to be decently maintained. In addition, we said that when men reached the age of 60 they should be entitled to a decent pension.
We differed from many people in our movement, because we recognised that our people were going to be affected by this policy. We found that, owing to this mechanization, the application of methods of motion study, and the application of scientific methods to piece work, our men at the age of 60 could not hold their own in industry. That meant either that they had to sign on at the employment exchanges or, when they were 65, they were automatically thrown out of industry. In addition, we find that there are relatively fewer employed, compared with the volume of production, than there were in 1919. I want to make that clear. I know that statistics prove that there are more employed in industry in Britain now than there ever were before, but they are relatively less in proportion to the volume of production. The effect on the old men is serious. I do not like calling them old men, because there are large numbers of men in this House who, at that age, are as active intellectually as young men, but we have to speak of them in that way, because these pensions are known as old age pensions. Having regard to the effects on the old men, we say that, in view of the enormous increase in production, 10s. a week is too low for old-age pensions, and that there is an unanswerable case for old-age pensions being increased.

§ Mr. Speaker
The hon. Member is not entitled to suggest anything which would require legislation.

§ Mr. Smith
What I am asking is that an examination should be made. The facts are unanswerable, and anyone who approaches this in an analytical way is bound to come to the conclusion I have reached. I ask that we should have an opportunity of placing these facts on record, in order that everyone, may read them and examine them, and that the 802 Government shall have an opportunity of considering them.
There is a great deal of indignation and uneasiness in the country over the way the ex-service men are treated. I had an experience yesterday morning which gave me a jerk. I went to a hospital and underwent an operation on my throat. While the local anesthetic was being allowed to settle, prior to the surgeon coming along, I listened to the tales of queues of men who were waiting to be examined. Some of them had British Legion badges in their coats, and when I saw an hon. Member over there to-day with a British Legion badge in his coat it made me wonder whether some hon. Members of this House who belong to the British Legion are doing their duty to that organisation. An elderly man came in. He looked a fine type of man—I am a fairly good judge of character, having had experience in a representative capacity in a fairly large type of shop. You could see that this was a broken-hearted man, and a man who wanted to do the right thing in life. When he was interrogated by the specialist, he said that he had lumps coming in his throat, and that they sometimes affected him when he was eating. Finally, he said that in 1916 he had an operation in France, because his tonsils were affected. He added that he did not think the operation was carried through in the way it should have been. The specialist immediately said, "There is the trouble."
There must be hundreds of men in that position in this country. These men were subject to abnormal conditions. Therefore, hon. Members of this House who have been closely associated with men of this character, must realise how these men are bound to be affected as they become old. We are not asking for any preferential treatment for ex-Service men. We ask that the Government should examine the facts.

§ Mr. Smith
I was just making the point when I was interrupted, that the men for whom we are speaking are subject to abnormal conditions. I have a friend who was in the Gallipoli campaign, and he told me that some of the trenches were on a hill, and that when it rained, and in order to hold their own, they had to 803 stand breast deep in water. Men subjected to conditions of that kind were bound to be affected later in life. Such conditions must undermine the constitution, and such people are subjected to great risks from pneumonia, influenza and other diseases. I had an experience although, fortunately, I have not been affected by it, but several friends of mine, owing to the fact that they have not the same physique, have been affected. I was in a tank corps, and unless people have undergone these conditions and experiences they have no idea of the effect of being confined in a small space and working under conditions such as were experienced in the tank corps. These pieces of mechanism were as perfect as it was possible to make them, but no matter how perfect a piece of mechanism is, such conditions as prevailed were bound to have some effect. One was affected by the exhaust, by the firing, and the smoke. When the six-bounders were being fired, we were affected by the smoke. Inside the tanks you suffered from the combined effects of the exhaust from the engine, the fumes from the pyrene fire-extinguishers and from petrol fumes.
Therefore, it was with great disappointment that I and a number of my hon. Friends read the report dealing with the request which the British Legion made to the Prime Minister for an inquiry into the condition of ex-service men. I always hesitate to prophesy, but I will prophesy on this occasion, that this report will be reflected in the conference of the British Legion which is to be held shortly. The report states that the reply of the Government to the British Legion with regard to their appeal for the setting up of a committee of inquiry was that the British Legion itself had appointed a committee of inquiry with regard to the matter and therefore there was no need for the Government to hold such an inquiry. I am not seeking on this issue to raise this matter, because we have had a Motion on the Order Paper for some time. I have been most careful in considering that aspect of it, and I do not want to raise any issue that should not be raised, because the subject is already on the Order Paper. Therefore, I am steering clear of that Motion and am confining myself to the report. As I have said, the report states that the British Legion have already had a committee of inquiry and 804 that there is no need for the Government to hold an inquiry. Our reply is that an organisation like the British Legion cannot have access to Departmental records and figures, and, therefore, it is important that, if an inquiry is to be held with the object of the facts being made known to the British Legion and to the nation, it should be carried through by the Government, who have access to the whole of the records. I ask that what I have said should be examined by the Government and by the whole of the Members of this House in order that these urgent questions effecting some of the poorest of the people in the country should receive consideration.