HC Deb 20 May 1938 vol 336 cc738-43

Amendment made:

In page 8, line 9, leave out, "July," and insert "October."—[Mr. Lyons.]

SCHEDULE.—(Consequential amendments of the principal Act and of the Education Act, 1921.)

Amendment made: In page 9, line 10, at the end, insert: In section sixty-six, in subsection (1), after the word ' Act ' there shall be inserted the words ' or under section eighty-four of this Act'."—[Mr. Lyons."]

11.17 a.m.

Mr. Lyons

I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."

I have moved several drafting Amendments this morning which the House has been pleased to accept. The Bill seeks to fill a number of gaps which have been found to occur in the working of the Children and Young Persons Act, 1933, and particularly it gives to the court, in making supervision orders, similar authority as the court has in making probation orders. Children and young persons appearing before the juvenile courts fall into two classes—those who have broken the law and those who have need of care and protection, and who are beyond control. The Bill further proposes to assimilate the law by empowering the court to attach the same conditions in cases whether it is a supervision order or a probation order. It also modifies the present law as to the constitution of juvenile courts in the Metropolitan area in accordance with the recommendations of the Departmental Committee, and makes minor amendments in the law to make uniform the powers of the court in dealing with boys and girls who require protection, or who are in need of care, or are beyond control. It is hoped that it will fill the gaps which have been found to exist in the working of the original Statute, and I am glad to have had the opportunity of presenting the Bill and of thanking hon. Members in all parts of the House who have given it their support, and also of thanking the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the staff at the Home Office, for their great assistance to me at all times.

Sir R. Clarry

I beg to second the Motion.

11.20 a.m.

Mr. Ammon

I congratulate the hon. and learned Member on getting his Bill through. Some of us were rather alarmed this morning when we found so many Amendments on the Order Paper. We thought that we were to have an entirely new Bill, but perhaps that is due to the fact that the hon. and learned Member responsible for the Bill has found it necessary practically to redraft his Measure by the various Amendments he has proposed. However, we recognise that it makes good, defects in the previous Act and does much for those youngsters who have fallen into unfortunate ways. For that reason we welcome the Bill.

11.21 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Geoffrey Lloyd)

I, also, would like to congratulate the hon. and learned Member on getting his Bill through, and to say on behalf of the Home Office that it will be welcomed by juvenile courts throughout the country. With regard to the question of drafting, I would like to give the hon. Member this satisfaction, that it has been the substitution of the word "provisions" for the word "condition." I understand that the legal experts at the Board of Education and the Home Office, and also the hon. and learned Member, attach a great deal of importance to this. The Bill is a useful Measure, because it fills several gaps in the law. Although the hon. and learned Member cannot be called the champion of the truants, yet, nevertheless, he ought really to be very dear to every truant's heart, although as these erring boys roam over the countryside they will not know who their benefactor is. The hon. and learned Member in his Bill has enabled the courts to take what, I think the House will agree, is a milder and more reasonable view of the act of truancy, and instead of having the drastic alternative of sending a boy to an approved school or placing him with a "fit person", they have the milder alternative of a supervision order, which, I think the House will agree, is an improvement.

11.23 a.m.

Mr. Viant

Those who are attached to juvenile courts in this country will be indebted to the hon. and learned Member for the improvements he has effected in the original Act. Those who have to deal with boys or girls who sometimes play truant—hon. Members will, no doubt, appreciate how they played truant in their school days—will feel grateful that this amending Bill wilty give them an opportunity of dealing with these cases which hitherto has not been available. I hope, however, that the hon. and learned Member's name will not be confused with that of a similar name, and that we shall not find these truants in tea-shops. In the olden days truants were generally found in apple orchards. But that is by the way. Those who are responsible for dealing with these cases in the juvenile courts will now feel that they have an alternative they had not before. This is an illustration of how, as the result of experience, we are able to improve our legislation. It is one of the advantages of Parliamentary and democratic institution. I hope that the Bill will find its way to the Statute Book without any further Amendment.

11.25 a.m.

Mr. David Adams

I wish to congratulate the hon. and learned Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons). For some years, I have served on the juvenile court in Newcastle, and on some occasions I also played truant. This Bill will be cordially welcomed throughout the country as a further extension of the powers of magistrates to deal with these juvenile offenders in a much more tolerant and reasonable way than hitherto has been considered possible. They will be able to look upon these childish weaknesses, idiosyncrasies and trifling errors with greater tolerance and more reason. I also was somewhat appalled when I saw the Order Paper this morning, for when the lions have roared, who shall not tremble? The Amendments were therefore accepted without opposition. I wish again to congratulate the hon. and learned Member on introducing this Bill, which extends in a small way British liberties, and which will be accepted by the juvenile population with alacrity and by the magistrates with satisfaction.

11.26 a.m.

Mr. Morgan

I also, wish to congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons). As one who has had much to do with the training of young people, and with their idiosyncrasies, and who knows what a problem it is to deal in the right way with children at that delicate age, I welcome this Bill, which will give opportunities for dealing with these children's misdemeanours in the right way. The psychology of children at this age is one that needs special study, and I am glad that it is receiving that special study by those who are engaged in the teaching profession. Teachers generally and those who have charge of young people will welcome this Bill as providing an enlightened method for dealing with these delinquents. I am sure that the teaching profession, to which I have been attached for so long, will wish me to say that they cordially welcome the Bill.

11.27 a.m.

Mr. H. G. Williams

I wish to congratulate my hon. and learned Friend the Member for East Leicester (Mr. Lyons) for rendering a valuable public service to our social life. If I may use an Irish phrase, I think it is very wrong to send anybody to prison for the first time. Hon. Members will appreciate the significance of that remark. Nothing is more tragic than to build up what may be called the gaol habit, whether one is dealing with adult or juvenile offenders. I have often been horrified when I have read of what seemed to me to be quite savage sentences by the courts in regard to something which was very frequently nothing more than a thoughtless juvenile "lark." For that reason, I welcome this Bill, which will make it easier for juvenile courts to deal wisely instead of brutally with young people.

I suppose that I am one of the few hon. Members who has ever made an arrest and brought somebody before a juvenile court. When I was a special constable, I arrested, with the assistance of another special constable, somebody who was charged with the grave offence of sleeping out in the small hours of the morning. The child was brought before the court, and fortunately at that time the court had power to place the child under proper supervision, thereby saving her from what otherwise might have been a disaster. Therefore, I am glad that the original Act is being amended so that that sort of treatment will be possible and will in general be the rule in future. Hon. Members have related their experiences as truants from school. I never had the good fortune of being able to play truant because my father was a schoolmaster, and there was no chance of my staying at home when I ought to have been in school, because my home and the school were the same place. Therefore, I have not enjoyed that privilege which other hon. Members have enjoyed; I never got into that habit, and possibly that is one of the reasons my Division record here is better than that of some other hon. Members.

11.30 a.m.

Sir Patrick Hannon

I join in welcoming this Bill, which makes a great change in the administration of the law in relation to young persons. The powers which are given to the courts in this Bill are a distinct advance in our prison system. I believe, with my hon. Friend the Member for South Croydon (Mr. H. G. Williams), who always gives expression to wise words in this House, that it is a great pity if any court lays the foundations for what may be described as the gaol habit. This Bill introduces a great change in the law by giving the court power to place children and young persons under the control and supervision of families, thus affording those children opportunities which it would not be possible to secure for them in the present state of the law. For those reasons I welcome the Bill, which affects a large number of children of the religious denomination to which I belong, and in whose fortunes I have been personally interested. For the sake of those children, I am grateful for this Bill. When I was a younger man, I had the privilege of being attached to the junior organisations movement in connection with the Home Office—I think before my hon. Friend the present Under-Secretary was born. since that time, many innovations have been introduced by the Home Office which have made for a better state of law in regard to those children. I hope that this Bill, in its administration, will achieve the objects which my hon. and learned Friend has in mind, and that the system of law in regard to children will thereby be definitely improved.

11.32 a.m.

Mr. Morgan

I wish to put one question to the Under-Secretary of State. Seeing that these powers are to be given to the juvenile courts, will, the Home Office take any special precautions to see that the magistrates in these courts—

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member has already exhausted his right to speak.

Question, "That the Bill be now read the Third time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read the Third time, and passed.