HC Deb 30 March 1938 vol 333 cc2094-8

8.10 p.m.

Mr. Spens

I beg to move, in page 8, line 30, at the end, to insert: (9) At the expiration of three months from the vesting date and at the expiration of every subsequent period of three months expiring before the compensation in respect of a holding has been paid in full the Commission shall pay to the person then entitled to the compensation in respect of such holding interest for such three months calculated as provided in the next succeeding Sub-section. (10) In respect of any such period of three months expiring before the Regional Valuation Board have settled the draft valuation of such holding the interest shall be calculated so as to be equal in amount to fifty per centum of one-fourth of the rents and profits of the holding for the year ending at the vesting date. (11) In respect of any such period after the Regional Valuation Board have settled their draft valuation of such holding and before they have certified the amount of the value of such holding under Sub-section (6) of this Section the interest shall be calculated at the rate mentioned in Sub-section (8) of this Section upon a sum equal to seventy-five per centum of the amount of such draft valuation. (12) In respect of any such period after the Regional Valuation Board have certified the said amount under Sub-section (6) of this Section the interest shall be calculated at the said rate upon a sum equal to seventy-five per centum of the amount so certified. This Amendment, in my view and in the view of my hon. Friends, touches one of the weak spots in the whole of the Government scheme. On the vesting date the royalties on all coal passes from the royalty owners to the Commission, and from that moment the royalty owner becomes disentitled to receive one single half penny from the royalties. The theory is that by that date the Value of the coal will have been ascertained and that he will have received the stock and will be receiving the income on his share of the global sum. But from the figures that are now known and from the computation of the valuations of the holdings, it seems perfectly certain that in a great number of cases there is no hope at all of the valuations being completed by the vesting date. In these circumstances, such a person is left without any sort of legal claim to any income to carry him on.

It is true that in the Schedule there is a provision under which the Commission, if it thinks fit, may make some payment on account;, but the former royalty owner is left entirely at the mercy of the Commission. He may have regularly recurring quarterly or other payments which he has to make, or otherwise get into trouble. There may be mortgage interest to be paid quarter by quarter or half-year by half-year. That money has to be found by him, and yet he has no certainty and no legal right to claim one penny of capital or interest from the Commission. It is all dependent on whether the Commission, in their charity, think that they will make some payment to him on account.

In our view that is a wholly improper situation in which to leave these people when the State is compulsorily expropriating them. If the State is going compulsorily to expropriate people and take from them their capital and their income, then at the date on which the State takes away the whole of their property the State ought to give them the legal right to receive something to keep them going. The Amendment is the result of a good deal of thought, and I hope that it will meet with the approval of the House. Its object is to give these people the right to receive on account each quarter a certain amount of income. If the valuation has not reached a certain stage, then they shall be paid on account a sum at the rate of 50 per cent. of one-fourth of their old royalties. If the draft valuation has been settled so that one knows that it is only a question of totting up figures, then they should get a sum equal to 75 per cent. of what that valuation shows.

The Amendment is to give them a legal right to an income on which they may rely, so that they will no longer be dependent on the charity of the Commission. I submit that it is utterly and hopelessly wrong that in a huge scheme where the State is expropriating people on a certain date those people should be left dependent on the mere power to make a payment to them on account. If the State takes away capital and interest from people it must give them a right to receive income as on that date. I propose the Amendment with all the force at my command, because it seems to us to be fair and one way of remedying a flaw in the Government's scheme.

Mr. Denman

I beg to second the Amendment.

8.15 p.m.

Captain Crookshank

The difficulty to which the hon. and learned Member has called attention is one to which naturally much thought has been given. His Amendment is based on the assumption that the whole time-table of the Bill is wrong. If the time-table as to valuation is correct and it is possible on the vesting date, or within such a short time as makes no difference, for compensation to be paid, this problem does not arise at all. The hon. and learned Member asks us to accept the Amendment because he says it is now clear that there is no hope of the valuation being completed by the right time. That is the first I have heard of this, and I do not know any reason at the moment on which he bases that assumption. If the hon. and learnedmember and those associated with him are correct, then I agree it is a serious matter which Parliament should consider, because these people whose property is being purchased by legislative action, whether they are large people or small people, have obligations which have to be met, and they will be placed in an awkward situation if no income is coming in. It might be, as the hon. and learned Member said, mortgage interest or payments which have to be met under trusts which cannot be postponed. All that is quite true if the assumption the hon. and learned Member makes is well founded.

We have sought to deal with the position by the provision we make in the Third Schedule, where the Commission have power to make payments on account when they are satisfied, before the final certificates become conclusive, that a particular person can safely be given a certain sum on account within what the ultimate compensation may be. That does not, of course, deal with the situation which would arise in the event of a complete breakdown, and I said in the Committee stage that if the whole plan broke down Parliament would have to take the matter into consideration. The Amendment seeks to make it statutory that some payment on account shall be made to these persons if compensation payments are unduly delayed. In the Schedule it is permissive; the Commission has to be satisfied that it is reasonable to make these payments. The Amendment makes it mandatory on them to make some payment, on a sliding scale according to the stage the valuations have reached. In paragraph 10: in respect of any such period of three months expiring before the Regional Valuation Board have settled the draft valuation of such holding so much. In paragraph 11: in respect of any such period after the Regional Valuation Board have settled their draft valuation of such holding so much. And in paragraph 12: In respect of any such period after the Regional Valuation Board have certified the said amount under Sub-section (6) of this Section so much. There is a sliding scale. It might be, if one is anticipating a complete breakdown, that something of this sort may have to be devised, but it could not be the particular proposal in the Amendment. I recognise that a great deal of thought has been given to the drafting of the Amendment to cover all the points at issue, but let me put this point to the hon. and learned Member. Under paragraph 10 of his Amendment you may have property which is going to have only one year's life after the vesting date. In that case the capital valuation would not be very high, not much more than the revenue received during the preceding year. If there is going to be a year's interval the Commission would be obliged to tender during that year by way of interest a sum equal to 50 per cent. of the compensation award. That may be an extreme case, but if you are going to give a statutory right of this kind you have to be certain that it is all right in every case. There is, of course, the difficulty which has been inherent all along of being quite certain that the person to whom this compensation is to be paid is the right person. That is part of the difficulty which is involved in a statutory arrangement of this kind. While I admit that my right hon. Friend and I have great sympathy with the hon. and learned Member and his friends in trying to devise some scheme which would enable these persons to have some form of income, we are not prepared to make the big assumption with which he starts, that the whole timetable of the Bill is wrong. We prefer to rely on the arrangements in the Schedule under which payment on account can be made. We are sure that if the gloomy prognostications of the hon. and learned Member are right and our anticipations so wrong that you have to make payments for such a long period as the Amendment envisages, it certainly is a matter which Parliament would have to consider nearer to the time when we can see how things are shaping. For these reasons we feel that the Amendment should not be inserted.

Amendment negatived.