§ 9.35 p.m.
§ Mr. T. SmithI beg to move, in page 18, line 41, to leave out "this Sub-section shall not affect."
This is one of three Amendments which are linked together, and the object of which is to transfer from the Railway and Canal Commission to the Commission set up under this Measure the power to review, rescind or vary an existing Working Facilities Order. I think it will be generally agreed that, once thee minerals have been acquired, and the Coal Commission has been set up; the position so far as regards the Railway and Canal Commission is different from what it was when that Commission was the only body dealing with these matters. We think that the Coal Commission could very well do this reviewing, and that it would be better done by them than by the Railway and Canal Commission.
§ Mr. TinkerI beg to second the Amendment.
§ 9.36 p.m.
§ Captain CrookshankThe working facilities right is, as I said just now, really, in certain instances, equivalent to a lease, in that it gives to the person concerned the same sort of right that he 2119 might have got in other circumstances by a lease or licence. While I do not wish to go too far back on what we have already passed this afternoon, it is only right, in connection with this Amendment, to point out to the House that, under Clause 5 (4), working facilities rights are retained interests, that is to say, they are not affected by the Bill. Therefore, if the Amendment were carried, it would be a direct contradiction at any rate of that Clause. A more serious reason against this proposal is the fact that the Railway and Canal Commission is a judicial body. It may be that, as the Mover of the Amendment says, in future the relationship between the Coal Commission and the Railway and Canal Commission will not be quite the same as in the case of private individuals, but the Railway and Canal Commission still remains a judicial body, and I do not think that most legal Members of the House would agree that a statutory body, however eminent and however good it may be, like the Coal Commission, should have the power, as it would if these Amendments were accepted, of overriding the judicial powers of a judicial Commission. That is something which we certainly could not recommend the House to insert. Incidentally, too, by the very Orders which they themselves grant, the Railway and Canal Commission reserve to themselves the right of varying the Order in certain circumstances, and I think that to go back on the decision of a judicial body which has acted as a judicial body in granting rights which are a retained interest under Clause 5 of the Bill, and to leave it to the Coal Commission to deal as it pleases with rights of that kind, is to go outside the bounds of possibility. Accordingly, with all due deference, I ask the House not to accept the Amendment.
§ 9.39 p.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsThe hon. and gallant Gentleman looks upon the Commission set up under this Bill as nothing but a sort of glorified private individual, having to be controlled in exactly the same way as a private individual. Working facilities have been granted by the Railway and Canal Commission, either through the refusal of some private individual to allow them in the national interest, or because there are so many different owners of the 2120 property that it is impossible to get a lease from all of them with any sort of convenience, and, therefore, the Railway and Canal Commission grants it. In future, that will all disappear. When the Coal Commission take over, it may very well be that the Coal Commission will think it better to vary the leases or working facilities rights which have been granted by the Railway and Canal Commission, because now, for the first time, the ownership will all be in the Coal Commission, which may be able to make very useful and helpful variations in these working conditions by planning them together with the leases that it can itself grant. If you are going to leave the question of facilities, and of rescinding or reviewing or varying them, in the hands of the Railway and Canal Commission, who have no control over the Coal Commission and who cannot compel the Coal Commission to aggregate the subject-matter of a Working Facilities Order, for instance, with some other lease, you are going to have a sort of diarchy with regard to this area of coal production which seems to us to be extremely inimical to a successful outcome of the Coal Commission's work.
This only deals with a very limited area of the functions of the Railway and Canal Commission; it only deals with the area in which they have granted these working facilities, which, as the hon. and gallant Gentleman rightly said, are really equivalent to compulsory leases; and surely, in view of the fact that the sole ownership will vest in the Coal Commission in the future the discretion as to whether there should be any review or rescinding or variation can only be exercised by some body which can also control the acts of the Coal Commission. Otherwise, the discretion cannot be usefully or properly exercised. How can the Railway and Canal Commission know whether it is advisable or wise to vary or rescind one of these Orders? It is only the Coal Commission who can know, because they will be dealing with all the other property in the vicinity, and they will know whether it is wiser or better that these facilities should be put into one lease or another, or whether these powers should be continued in one company or another. You are not dealing with rivalries between individual owners of property, as was always the case in the past; you are now dealing with the wisdom of planning the 2121 output of coal nationally, and that is a matter with which the Railway and Canal Commission are quite unfitted to deal. They are all right as a judicial body, to decide between one set of private owners and another set of private owners, but when it comes to planning the industry with a knowledge of all the surrounding circumstances, the Coal Commission are the people who would have the knowledge.
We are not attempting here to get any advantage for the Coal Commission, or to give it a particular flavour or colour. All that we want is to get some efficiency into the carrying out of the work of the Coal Commission. If, while the Coal Commission are trying to consolidate leases or something of that kind, the Railway and Canal Commission make some Order with regard to working facilities which is quite opposite in policy to that of the Coal (Commission, it will merely lead to difficulties and spoil the chances of proper co-ordination of the leasing system and the working facilities system. We ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman not to
§ pass this by as something which cannot be done because the Railway and Canal Commission in the past have done it as a judicial body. The whole circumstances have completely altered, and, in these altered circumstances, we want the hon. and gallant Gentleman to say that it would be much wiser and better, and more convenient in every way, if the Coal Commission, who will have this full knowledge both of their own policy and of what they themselves are doing with regard to this matter, deal in future with these so-called compulsory leases, that have to be varied or rescinded, rather than leave them in the hands of a judicial body which will have no knowledge at all to help it as regards the wise disposal of coal leases. I ask the hon. and gallant Gentleman, therefore, to accept these Amendments.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 190; Noes, 100.
2123| Division No. 156.] | AYES. | [9.47 p.m. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Donner, P. W. | Holdsworth, H. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Dugdale, Captain T. L. | Hopkinson, A. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Duncan, J. A. L. | Horsbrugh, Florence |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Eastwood, J. F. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Eckersley, P. T. | Hume, Sir G. H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Hunter, T. |
| Barrie, Sir C. C. | Ellis, Sir G. | Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Keeling, E. H. |
| Beaumont, Han. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Emery, J. F. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) |
| Beechman, N. A. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Bernays, R. H. | Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.) |
| Bird, Sir R. B. | Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Leech, Sir J. W. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Fildes, Sir H. | Lees-Jones, J. |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Findlay, Sir E. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Bracken, B. | Fleming, E. L. | Levy, T. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Foot, D. M. | Lewis, O. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Lipson, D. L. |
| Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Lyons, A. M. |
| Bull, B. B. | Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Gledhill, G. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Gluckstein, L. H. | M'Connell, Sir J. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Goldie, N. B. | MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) |
| Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) | Gower, Sir R. V. | Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) |
| Christie, J. A. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. |
| Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) | Maclay, Hon. J. P. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | Maitland, A. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Grimston, R. V. | Mander, G. le M. |
| Conant, Captain R. J. E. | Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S) | Gunsten, Capt. Sir D. W. | Markham, S. F. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Hambro, A. V. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Hannah, I. C. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Cross, R. H. | Harbord, A. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Crossley, A. C. | Harvey, Sir G. | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick) |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) | Morgan, R. H. |
| Culverwell, C. T. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.) |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Munro, P. |
| Denville, Alfred | Higgs, W. F. | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. |
| Dodd, J. S. | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Owen, Major G. | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) | Thomson, Sir J. D. W. |
| Peake, O. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Peat, C. U. | Salmon, Sir I. | Touche, G. C. |
| Perkins, W. R. D. | Samuel, M. R. A. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Peters, Dr. S. J. | Savery, Sir Servington | Turton, R. H. |
| Petherick, M. | Seely, Sir H. M. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Selley, H. R. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Pilkington, R. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Radford, E. A. | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Wayland, Sir W. A |
| Ramsay, Captain A. H. M. | Smith, L. W. (Hallam) | Wells, S. R. |
| Ramsden, Sir E. | Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) | White, H. Graham |
| Rayner, Major R. H. | Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) | Spens, W. P. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Storey, S. | Wragg, H. |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) | Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C. |
| Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | |
| Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R. | Tasker, Sir R. 1. | Captain Waterhouse and Mr. Furness. |
| Russell, Sir Alexander | Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Gardner, B. W. | Muff, G. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Gibson, R. (Greenock) | Naylor, T. E. |
| Alexander, RI. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Oliver, G. H. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Grenfell, D. R. | Paling, W. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Parker, J. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Groves, T. E. | Parkinson, J. A. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Pearson, A. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hall, J. H. (Whiltechapel) | Price, M. P. |
| Barr, J. | Hayday, A. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Riley, B. |
| Broad, F. A. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Ritson, J. |
| Bromfield, W. | Hopkin, D. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Shinwell, E. |
| Buchanan, G. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Silverman, S. S. |
| Cape, T. | John, W. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Chater, D. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Stephen, C. |
| Cocks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Cove, W. G. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Leach, W. | Thurtle, E. |
| Daggar, G. | Lee, F. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Leonard, W. | Tomlinson, G. |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Leslie, J. R. | Viant, S. P |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Logan, D. G. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Day, H. | Lunn, W. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dobbie, W. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | McEntee, V. La T. | Williams. T. (Don Valley) |
| Ede, J. C. | McGhee, H. G. | Wilson, C. H. (Atlercliffe) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | MacLaren, A. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Maxton, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Frankel, D. | Montague, F. | |
| Gallacher, W. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Mathers and Mr. Whiteley. |