§ 5. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister the number of British merchant vessels in Spanish Government ports, or on any voyage from or to Spanish Government ports, which have been, respectively, sunk, damaged or detained by insurgent or unknown air, surface or underwater 1608 craft; in how many cases have the British Government made a protest to the Spanish insurgent authorities; in how many has compensation been claimed; and in how many cases it has been received?
§ Mr. ButlerFour British merchant vessels were sunk in this manner; 10 were captured and detained in Nationalist ports, being later released; and so far as my information goes some 12 have been damaged, mostly during air raids on Spanish Government ports. His Majesty's Government have protested in every case where it has been possible to establish responsibility. As regards compensation, no specific claims have yet been presented to the Nationalist authorities by His Majesty's Government, though the right to submit claims in suitable cases has been reserved.
§ Mr. RobertsCan the hon. Gentleman say what the total claims are likely to be?
§ Mr. ButlerIt is usual, I understand, to submit claims of this nature after hostilities have ceased, and all these claims are at the present moment being examined.
§ Mr. A. V. AlexanderCan the hon. Gentleman say what his answer means in reference to Nationalists? Who are the Nationalists? Is he talking about the rebel insurgents?
§ Mr. RobertsHas the hon. Gentleman any information in his possession showing the total claims made by British companies?
§ Mr. ButlerWe have had claims put in, but they are all being examined, and some of them appear to be rather inflated.
§ Mr. Wedgwood BennIn cases where the damage was done not by insurgent aeroplanes, but by Italian aeroplanes, will the claims be presented to the Italians?
§ 6. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether the information in the possession of the British Government as to the transfer of four Italian destroyers to General Franco's Government in the late autumn of last year was forwarded to the Non-intervention Committee; and, if so, what action was taken?
22. Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister the date on which His Majesty's Government first received an intimation that General Franco's forces had acquired four additional destroyers; at what date, if at all, did His Majesty's Government place this information before the Non-Intervention Committee; and what steps, if any, did they take to obtain information upon the country of origin of these warships?
§ Mr. ButlerMy hon. Friend the Parliamentary Secretary to the Admiralty and I have stated that there were reports to this effect in the autumn of last year. The possibility of sponsoring alleged breaches of the Non-intervention Agreement before the Non-intervention Committee has repeatedly been considered by His Majesty's Government. Early experience, however, showed the virtual impossibility of proving such breaches, and it was this consideration which prevented His Majesty's Government from taking action in this particular case.
§ Mr. RobertsI understood from the answer to a question the other day that there would be non-intervention, and is it not the fact that the Non-intervention Committee itself does not collect evidence and that only the Governments collect evidence? Am I to understand now that the Governments do not present this evidence to the Committee?
§ Mr. ButlerThe Governments have the right to sponsor claims before the Nonintervention Committee. At the same time, the International Board have officers who can, by observation, collect the evidence.
§ Mr. RobertsIs it the fact that the observation officers present their reports to the British Government and not to the Non-intervention Committee?
§ Mr. ButlerNo, Sir, the officers are employed by the International Board and are answerable to the board.
§ Mr. AttleeIt is not a question whether they report to the board. The point is, who brings up the question of breaches of non-intervention? Is it the Government or the officers of the board; or is it only the Government who can bring it up?
§ Mr. ButlerThe Government have the right to sponsor claims before the Nonintervention Committee.
§ Mr. AttleeThe hon. Gentleman has not answered my question. Have the officers the right to initiate proceedings before the Non-intervention Committee, or only the Government?
§ Mr. ButlerThe officers have not that right.
§ Mr. AttleeCan the hon. Gentleman say whether any claim will be put forward, or have the Government put forward any claim?
§ Brigadier-General Sir Henry CroftCan my hon. Friend say whether, if the Government make this claim, they will also call attention to the similar transfer of a fleet of 300 Russian tanks to the Barcelona Government?
§ Mr. Speakerrose—
§ 7. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the speech on 16th March, 1938, in the Italian Chamber of Deputies by General Guiseppe Valle, Under-Secretary for Air, in which the rôle of Italian aviation in the Spanish war was described; and whether he will have the relevant passages circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ The Prime MinisterYes, Sir. My attention has been drawn to newspaper reports of this speech, but I am not prepared to take the action suggested by the hon. Member.
§ Mr. RobertsWill the Prime Minister take steps to have the newspaper reports verified, and if he finds that they are verified, will he circulate the relevant passages in the way suggested?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir, I do not think that that is part of my duty.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerHas the Prime Minister seen the reports in the officially controlled Italian Press giving a verbatim account of what General Guiseppe Valle said; and will he not consider circulating that for the information of the House?
§ 10. Colonel Nathanasked the Prime Minister whether he will state, according to the latest information at the disposal of His Majesty's Government, the respective approximate numbers of German and of Italian military personnel and surface and underwater vessels and aeroplanes of German or Italian origin, and the approximate amounts of German and Italian war 1611 material at the disposal of the Spanish insurgents; whether there has been an increase or diminution of the same since 21st February, 1938; and what proportion the same, respectively, bears to the total personnel, vessels, aeroplanes, and material at the disposal of the insurgents?
§ Mr. ButlerThe hon. and gallant Gentleman will, I hope, realise that it is impossible for His Majesty's Government to obtain detailed and exact information of this nature.
§ Colonel NathanIs the Under-Secretary aware that this question does not ask whether the Government will obtain information, but what information is in the possession of the Government, be that information little or great?
§ Major-General Sir Alfred KnoxCannot the collection of this information be left to the French and the Russian Governments?
§ Mr. ButlerI have answered previously the hon. and gallant Gentleman's question. It is impossible for the Government to give this information, and it is difficult to obtain the exact nature of it to verify it.
§ Colonel NathanCan the hon. Gentleman give such information as the Government have upon these matters?
§ Mr. ButlerAs I have said in reply to the hon. and gallant Gentleman, I cannot vouch for its accuracy, and, therefore, could not undertake to give it.
§ Colonel NathanIrrespective of the accuracy of it, will the hon. Gentleman give the information?
§ 15. Mr. Crawford Greeneasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that many soldiers fighting in the Republican forces in Spain are not of Spanish origin but are exiles from their own countries and have lost their nationality, and part of their reward for their military services to the Republican Government is the bestowal of Spanish nationality; and whether, in considering the withdrawal of foreign soldiers from Spain, His Majesty's Government have decided to class them as alien volunteers or as Spanish nationals?
§ Mr. ButlerThis is a matter for the consideration of the Non-intervention 1612 Committee and I can assure my hon. Friend that they are fully aware of the problem. I am not, however, at present in a position to give any information on the subject.
§ Mr. GreeneAre His Majesty's Government taking into consideration the fact that the Government granting this nationality is recognised neither by Germany nor Italy?
§ 18. Mr. G. Straussasked the Prime Minister what action he proposes to take in view of the recent resolution passed by the National Directorate of the Italian Fascist party that Italian troops were an essential factor in General Franco's recent victories and that they would establish a new civilisation in Signor Mussolini's name along the western shores of the Mediterranean?
§ Mr. ButlerI have seen a report in the Press of the document to which the hon. Member refers, but I do not consider that it necessarily bears the interpretation which he places upon it
§ Mr. StraussAs the document is quite clear that the Western Mediterranean may be a new Mussolini dominion, are the Government prepared to do nothing in view of that open admission?
§ Mr. ButlerMy right hon. Friend said on Thursday last that he was prepared to accept the word of the Italian Government that they have no territorial, political or economic aims in Spain.
§ Sir H. CroftWith regard to statements in foreign countries, is the Under-Secretary aware that an attack was made on His Majesty's Government by the hon. Member for North Lambeth (Mr. G. Strauss) in Spain?
21. Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister whether any report has been issued or can be made available to Members concerning the nature of methods and local distribution of the assistance given by the International Red Cross in Spain to which His Majesty's Government have contributed?
§ Mr. ButlerYes, Sir. I will arrange for a copy to be placed in the Library of the House.
§ 23. Mr. Thurtleasked the Prime Minister whether it is the practice of His Majesty's Government to bring to the 1613 notice of the Non-Intervention Committee all verified breaches of the Nonintervention Agreement which are brought to their notice; and in how many cases has this practice been followed?
§ Mr. ButlerHis Majesty's Government have asked the Non-intervention Committee to investigate information which had come into their possession regarding some 13 alleged breaches of the Nonintervention Agreement. The experience gained in the early months of the existence of the Non-intervention Committee made it plain that it was not possible to bring home to the Governments concerned such alleged breaches; and it was largely for this reason that the Observation Scheme was elaborated and put into operation, for the purpose of obtaining direct and impartial evidence. Since the putting into operation of this scheme there is not the same necessity for individual Governments to bring alleged breaches of the Agreement to the notice of the Committee, since the International Board are clearly in a far better position to secure evidence.
§ Mr. AttleeIn view of the fact that the Under-Secretary has just informed me that only Governments can take action on these complaints, what happens with regard to the information that comes before the board?
§ Mr. ButlerI said that Governments had a right to bring these matters before the Committee. If the Committee receive this evidence from the International Board, there is no doubt they could take action among themselves in the matter.
§ Mr. ThurtleAre we to understand that since the Non-intervention Agreement came into force the Government have no verified knowledge of any single breach of the Non-intervention Agreement?
§ Mr. ButlerWhat I said was that the Government have asked the Committee to investigate information which has come into their possession regarding some 13 cases.
§ Mr. ThurtleDid the hon. Member not say that was before the Non-intervention Agreement came into force? What I am asking is whether since the Agreement came into force the Government have any knowledge in their possession, which 1614 has been verified, of breaches of the Agreement?
§ Sir Archibald SinclairIs not the Government's reluctance to bring these alleged breaches before the Non-intervention Committee due to their reluctance to have the Italian Government convicted?
§ The Prime MinisterThat is not true.
§ Sir A. SinclairI could not hear what the Prime Minister said.
§ The Prime MinisterI said that is not true.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerWill the Prime Minister lay before the Committee the report of the "Times" correspondent in General Franco's territory, that new German and Italian air forces had been arriving recently?
§ Mr. ShinwellIs not the Prime Minister deliberately conniving at a victory for General Franco?
§ 24. Mr. Sorensenasked the Prime Minister whether he will propose to the Spanish Government and to the insurgent authorities the withdrawal of all troops and military material from certain areas and towns in Spain, in order that these could become centres of refuge for the infirm, women, and children under the supervision and administration of the League of Nations?
§ Mr. ButlerI will consider the hon. Member's suggestion, which presents, however, many difficulties.
§ Mr. SorensenWill the Under-Secretary not only consider it but recommend that steps be taken in that direction?
§ Mr. ButlerIt is not the first time this question has been considered. We have found many difficulties, but I will give the matter renewed consideration.
Sir Nairne Stewart SandemanWould it not be the best thing to withdraw women and children from Barcelona?
48. Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister whether he is prepared to allow the Navy to give any assistance in conveying non-combatant refugees out of the danger zone in East Spain or in protecting merchant ships used for refugees?
§ The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Colonel Llewellin)I have been asked to reply. As in the past, His Majesty's 1615 Ships will afford such assistance in humanitarian work as is reasonably practicable. As regards the protection of merchant ships carrying refugees, I would refer the hon. Lady to the reply given by my right hon. Friend the First Lord, on I2th July, to the hon. Member for Gower (Mr. Grenfell).
Miss RathboneIn view of the fact that the sufferings of the population of Barcelona are largely caused by the action of the Government in forbidding the Spanish Government to buy arms—
§ Mr. SpeakerThat is quite improper as a supplementary question.
Miss RathboneMay I complete my question by asking whether the Government will allow the British Navy to evacuate refugees as they did in the case of the refugees of General Franco in the early days of the war?
§ Colonel LlewellinThe Royal Navy is evacuating any British subjects from Barcelona who wish to go. With regard to evacuating other refugees either from Barcelona or Valencia, the House may like to know that there is no blockade of these ports and that they can leave by ships which call at these ports daily.