ART AND SCIENCE BUILDINGS, GREAT BRITAIN. (Hansard, 1 March 1938)

§ Sir P. Sassoon
The scope of this Vote is contained in the title. It covers, on the one hand, all the works done by my Department in connection with various State art galleries, libraries and museums, 988 the National Gallery, the Tate Gallery, the Wallace Collection, the Imperial War Museum, as well as two colleges, the Royal College of Arts, and the Imperial College of Science and Technology. On the other hand, it covers a number of laboratories, experimental stations and research stations such as the Government Chemist's Laboratory and the Institutions of the Department of Scientific Research as well as the Royal Society and the Royal Observatory at Edinburgh. Both as to this Vote and the others with which I shall deal it is hardly necessary to explain that each Vote covers not only buildings and engineering but also various incidental expenses, such as cleaning, heating, lighting and furniture, custody of the buildings, etc. It follows, therefore, that certain, but not all, of the explanations of the additional moneys for which I am asking are common to all Votes.
I should particularly like to explain that it has been the normal practice for 989 several years in relation to the larger Votes, when preparing the Estimates at the beginning of the year, to make a lump sum deduction from the gross total amount for the year coming under the sub-heads for New Works. The reason is that experience has shown that it is seldom possible in practice to complete in that year the programme of work for which provision is made. It is obviously impossible to forecast with absolute accuracy the exact amount of work which it will be found possible to accomplish in the ensuing 12 months. To reduce our programme for the year to that which we feel absolutely certain of accomplishing would probably in many cases lead to loss of valuable time, whereas to include financial provision for everything that we might hope to achieve if circumstances proved uniformly favourable, would result in most years in our budgeting for more than we should, in fact, be able to spend. It has been the practice, therefore, to meet this dilemma by planning the year's work on a reasonable assumption as to the progress, and to equate the risk of casualties and delays by making a lump sum deduction from the gross total of the individual schemes. That method has the result that in some years we have to come back to the House and ask for more. But I think the House would prefer that rather than it should be asked at the beginning of the year for more money than is actually spent.
In the case of this Vote we have this year been able to come nearer to the accomplishment of our original plan than is usually the case, with the result that the lump sum deduction that was made at the beginning of the year has proved to be too much, and I have, therefore, to ask the Committee to restore the deduction made in respect of new work to the extent of £11,000. It remains to explain the balance of £9,000 which goes to make up this Supplementary Estimate of £20,000. This sum of £9,000 comes wholly under sub-head D—"Fuel, gas, electric current and water," and G—"Appropriations-in-Aid." The explanation in both cases would apply not only to this Vote but to all the others. With regard to Sub-head D, the extra provision is necessitated in the main by increases in the cost of coal, gas and the general run of household articles required for cleaning, and also in the increased charges for laundry work. My Department has, for the best reason in the world, keen sympathy 990 with the consuming public who share their misfortune. As regards electric current, the increase is mainly due to the fact that for the first full year of opening at Lambeth of the Imperial War Museum, and the new library quadrant and the reconstructed North Wing of the British Museum we under-estimated the cost of lighting required. Finally, the shortage in Appropriations-in-Aid is attributable to the fact that a number of schemes, the cost of which would have been recovered from the bodies concerned, have either not yet commenced or have failed to make the progress expected. Payment will, therefore, not come to our aid this year, but will come to be received next year. On the other hand, the delay in these works has resulted in a corresponding saving under other sub-heads.

§ Mr. Viant
The statement made by the right hon. Gentleman will be appreciated by the Committee, I feel sure. I had in mind the need for putting a question to him in respect to the increase of £4,000 in the charge for fuel, gas, electric current and water. I observed the sentiment expressed by the right hon. Gentleman: that, being responsible for the Department, he was able to appreciate the position of the ordinary consumers. That will be welcomed by the Committee. I think the Committee would be interested to Know what the percentage of increase has been. It would be a guide to hon. Members, and they would be able to anticipate what increases they should expect in the other Estimates. Further, I think it is an opportune time to ask, seeing that the Government Departments are large consumers of fuel in general, whether it is the intention of the Government, and more especially of the Office of Works, to associate themselves with the Committee projected by the President of the Board of Trade, with a view to watching over the interests of consumers in general in regard to the anticipated rise in the price of coal?

The Chairman
I am afraid that I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman that the present moment is opportune for that.

§ Mr. Viant
Very well. Sir Dennis; I bow to your Ruling. In respect to the increase in the charge for laundry, are the Committee to understand that that is due to an increase in the amount of 991 laundry work or to an increase in the charges made? We are rather anxious to know what is the trend of wages for those who are catering for the need of Government Departments. The Committee are entitled to a little more explanation in respect to sub-head A which deals with new works, alterations, additions and purchases, and under which an additional £11,000 is required. I note that the progress of the services has been such that it is anticipated that the saving will amount to £9,000. I should be obliged if the right hon. Gentleman could tell us something more of the nature of this work. Are these new buildings, or are they only alterations? It would be interesting to know where these buildings will be situated.

The Chairman
It has been explained that all these schemes have been provided for already. It is merely a question now of the rate of progress which is being made.

§ Mr. Morgan Jones
Is my hon. Friend not entitled, Sir Dennis, to ask where these works are?

The Chairman
I agree that he is entitled to ask that, but his question was far more extensive.

§ Mr. Viant
Surely, I am entitled to ask the reason for the increase.

The Chairman
I say that it is not an increased expenditure at all; it is merely an advance in the time of payment.

§ Mr. Viant
Some of it, I submit, is an increase. A saving of £9,000 is anticipated, yet the Committee is asked to give a further £11,000. Also, the title of the sub-head naturally leads one to believe what it says: "New buildings, alterations, additions and purchases." I simply ask for information as to the class of new work: where it would be done, and so on.

The Chairman
I do not want to be unreasonable, but the hon. Member knows that the rules in regard to Supplementary Estimates are very strict. If he realises what the position is, he will see that we cannot discuss these particular works. The only thing that could be discussed would be: to take an example, if a building which was going to cost £5,000, was expected to be only half built during the 992 year, and, therefore, there was £2,500 deducted from it, but, in the result, more than half the building was done then, and so much more would have to be paid. We cannot go into any details as to the purpose for which this money has been voted.

§ Mr. Viant
Perhaps this will meet the position. Might I ask, what buildings or what works are in advance of the Department's anticipation? That will give us some idea as to the place of buildings and the types of buildings.

§ Colonel Nathan
Before the right hon. Gentleman replies, might I put this comparatively minor question? In connection with Appropriations-in-aid, there is an item of £750 for "National Gallery: Contribution towards cost of new Postcard Room." Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to say what the new postcard room is, and how the new item arises?

§ Mr. Mathers
The item immediately following that to which my hon. and gallant Friend has referred is one of £1,875 as a contribution towards the cost of extension of the National Library of Scotland in Edinburgh. I think there should be some explanation as to why this amount has not accrued to the Treasury during the year, and what the position is with regard to it. This contribution is obviously one that should have come from Scotland. I am not anxious that there should be additional contributions coming from Scotland, but, the item being in the position it is in, makes it pleasing to me, because I think that in the past we have had far too little in the way of subventions and assistance for public institutions of this kind, and museums in patricular. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give an indication as to the reason for this sum appearing in this position in the account.

§ Mr. Kelly
I am anxious for the Minister to give some clear indication as to this work that is being engaged in, in respect to the art buildings particularly. I will confine myself to the question of the Tate Gallery, which was mentioned by name without particulars being given. Am I to understand that the money which is required, or has been spent, there, and is mentioned in the 993 Supplementary Estimate, has been spent on the heating and ventilation of the Tate Gallery in order to preserve the pictures? This matter has been mentioned in the House recently; and we had a promise that more than the sum mentioned would be spent, in order that the pictures might not go to destruction in the way they are doing now.

The Chairman
I do not want to prevent hon. Members asking questions if the Government representative is prepared to answer, even if it is stretching the limits of the Debate. But it is quite clear that that is not a matter to be discussed, and I hope the hon. Member will not go into detail about it.

§ Mr. Kelly
I do not intend to go into detail; but we had a promise, and I wonder if the figure in the Estimate is in reference to that promise. Can we have some indication that the Commissioner is looking after that?

Mr. David Adams
I understand from your numerous Rulings, Sir Dennis, that one cannot deal in any general way with the subject I want to touch upon, which is the increased consumption of smokeless fuel in Government Departments, though I suppose it might be raised under subhead D. I would like the Minister to state, if possible, what proportion of the £4,000 which has been mentioned is used for the purchase of smokeless fuel; or, if he cannot state that, to state whether there is increased consumption of smokeless fuel in Government Departments. There is very little doubt, I think, that smokeless fuel ought to be in general use in all Government Departments as an example to other people. Local authorities are being urged by Government Departments, particularly by the Department of Scientific Research, to eliminate smoke pollution by the greater use of smokeless fuel, and if that is sound advice for local authorities, it is equally sound for Government Departments. I take it that I am entitled to inquire whether, if it has not been done in the past, the Office of Works will in future experiment, or make inquiries in various Government Departments with the object of bringing about the general use of smokeless fuel of one sort or another for the purpose of elminating the smoke-pall which hangs with such detriment over this portion of London.

§ Miss Wilkinson
I wish to confine myself to asking a question with regard to the item of £11,000, the additional sum required under sub-head A for new works, alterations, additions and purchases. Can the Minister say whether, under the heading of purchases, are included purchases of pictures for the National Gallery?

The Chairman
The hon. Lady cannot deal with that point.

§ Miss Wilkinson
I am only asking for information. I am not anxious to make a point. I do not want to make a discussion at all because I do not want to be ruled out of order. I want to know whether the £11,000 covers the purchase of pictures for the National Gallery or not.

The Chairman
I meant that the hon. Lady could not go into the question of the purchase of pictures.

§ Miss Wilkinson
Does it cover the purchase of pictures? Surely, the Minister knows what his Vote is for.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
Perhaps I might explain what the £11,000 really means. I explained just now that a lump sum deduction was made from Vote "A," which is for new works and buildings. This is a lump sum deduction made from the total sum at the beginning of the year. We now come back and say that the lump sum deduction was too big and we want another £11,000, but that sum does not cover pictures. It is for new works, alterations, additions and purchases.

§ Miss Wilkinson
I take it that there is no money included in that sum of £11,000 to cover the purchase of works of art?

§ Sir P. Sassoon
The Office of Works does not provide money for the purchase of pictures. That comes under the Treasury.

§ Mr. Porritt
I would like to know whether the increase of £1,600 in respect of electric current is due to the extension of time accorded to the public for access to the British Museum. I understand that the regulations as to time of access have been altered within recent months.

§ Mr. Shinwell
I should like to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman with 995 regard to sub-head D, where it is stated that the cost of fuel has increased. Can the right hon. Gentleman say what the average increase has been over previous years?

§ Sir P. Sassoon
The average increase of the coal that we consume is about 4s. 3d. a ton, which, of course, includes the rise in freights. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we make our coal contracts from July to July, so that the price of coal in one July remains until the following July, and when we estimate in March, we have to take account of the fact that the freightage of coal may be altered between March and July. Between July to July the cost remains the same, but we have to pay the difference in freightage if it goes up.

§ Mr. Shinwell
Can the right hon. Gentleman say what is the actual increase in the cost of the coal itself apart from freightage, and whether there has been an equivalent increase in respect of smokeless fuel purchased by his Department?

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I can tell the hon. Gentleman only that as far as we are concerned there has been an increase of 4s. 3d. per ton in respect of coal. One of the ways to avoid smoke pollution is to use smokeless fuel, and we are using smokeless fuel as far as we can in all the boilers in the Whitehall buildings. As far as the possible varieties of coke that can be used in open fireplaces to mitigate the smoke nuisance are concerned, as the hon. Gentleman knows, they have not been produced in very great quantities and the price has been high. The price of coke produced by low-temperature carbonisation has been about 10s. per ton more than the price of ordinary household coal. That is one of the fuels the use of which, in order to avoid smoke in Whitehall, we shall be very glad to avail ourselves if only it can be produced in sufficient quantities and at a reasonable price.

Mr. David Adams
Cannot the right hon. Gentleman see his way to make use of coke similar to that used in this House?

The Chairman
I have stretched a point by allowing hon. Members to put questions which are not strictly in order, if the Minister is willing to answer them; 996 but I cannot allow such questions to develop into discussions which are outside the limits of the Supplementary Estimate.

§ Mr. Viant
I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will reply to the questions which I have asked.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I intend to reply. The cost of household articles and laundry has gone up. Laundry charges have increased by 60 per cent., and the price of brushes and other articles has gone up a great deal also. I do not think that that is anything new to the hon. Gentleman. It affects my Department and everybody who has to make purchases. As far as laundry work is concerned, we pay the average prices. The Factory Act has shortened the hours in laundries, and, therefore, additional staff have to be employed, and this has contributed, no doubt, towards putting up prices. I do not know what other information the hon. Gentleman wishes to have about the increases.

§ Miss Wilkinson
Will it be possible for the right hon. Gentleman to supply to his right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour a list of the increases in the prices of goods which he is buying wholesale which may to some extent guide him when he comes to consider the increase in the price of goods in relation to the incomes of the people.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I shall be very glad to give my right hon. Friend the Minister of Labour any information which is not already in his possession. The hon. Gentleman will see that we are not proceeding with the new postcard room at the National Gallery. It is not because we would not like to have it there, but we feel that there are many more pressing things required at the moment. That applies also to the extension of the National Library of Scotland. The work is not being started this year, but the appropriate sum will fall within the total of next year.

§ Mr. Viant
The Committee might be informed of the nature of the buildings, and what buildings are in advance of their anticipated construction.

§ Mr. Kelly
And what about the preservation of the pictures?

§ Sir P. Sassoon
In many cases the sums voted in 1936 did not come to fruition, and therefore they were reintroduced in 1937. Perhaps I might give a few details 997 to the hon. Gentleman, who seems anxious to know the nature of these works. At the British Museum the Library has been reconstructed. At Cardiff, the laboratory which was voted in 1936 was not finished on time, and the sum of £1,555 comes into 1937. There is the National Physical Laboratory, an adaptation, the Royal Scottish Museum, an extension of accommodation, and the British Museum, studio to the National Gallery and works of that nature fall under this Vote. In many cases the items were voted in last year's Estimate and owing to unforeseen circumstances the works were not completed, and therefore the remainder of the money comes in this year.

§ Mr. Mathers
I am glad to think that with regard to the National Library of Scotland, the sum of £1,875 is not an amount that was due from Scotland and had not been paid, for I like to think that my fellow-countrymen pay their debts. The explanation which the right hon. Gentleman has given causes me to ask why the extension of the National Library of Scotland is not being proceeded with. I know that we are in process of getting a new building for the National Library, and perhaps that is the explanation. But we should have information as to why the particular extension to the National Library, involving a sum of £1,875, is not being proceeded with at the present time.

§ Mr. Kelly
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether or not the item for heating and altering of the Tate Gallery generally was for the purpose of preserving the pictures, questions about which have been raised in this House many times?

Mr. David Adams
Did the Minister indicate that the coke used in the Lobbies of this House is generally for use in other Departments?

The Chairman
I am afraid that I cannot allow the hon. Member to press these questions further as they are quite out of order.

Mr. Adams
On a point of Order. The Minister made a statement on this matter, and I should like to have it clarified.

The Chairman
I expressly said that I had allowed a certain amount of latitude, and I cannot allow this subject to be debated.

Mr. Adams
I take it that I shall have to communicate with the right hon. Gentleman in writing in order to get the information I require.

§ Mr. Benn
Does any of the supplementary sum referred to relate to the extensions of the Tate Gallery which took place last year?

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I do not really know exactly, but I will inquire.

§ Mr. Benn
I do not know whether I am in order, but I am interested in this matter. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the question of flood prevention at Millbank is very serious to those who have to live there. Valuable pictures were damaged about 10 years ago. I may be quite out of order. The right hon. Gentleman has only to say that it is not in the Vote and that he cannot give the information now, but if it happens to be in the Vote it would be of great public interest if the right hon. Gentleman could make a statement.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
It would come under this particular Vote, but I do not think that there is anything in the Supplementary Estimate which applies to anything about which the right hon. Gentleman has asked.

§ Mr. Benn
The right hon. Gentleman tells us that there is no sum additional to the original sum asked for in respect of the Tate Gallery for any work. He will be aware that only about three weeks ago the Port of London Authority issued a warning to residents and others in the neighbourhood of the Tate Gallery to protect themselves. It would be a very serious thing if flooding attacked the Tate Gallery and destroyed the very beautiful frescoes and—

The Chairman
That does not arise on this Vote.

§ Mr. Benn
I do not understand. This Supplementary Vote is, I understand, intended as an addition to the amount voted for the year ended 31st March.

The Chairman
Not in regard to any newly arranged or newly intended expenditure. It merely relates to expenditure decided upon a year ago and in respect of which progress has been at a greater rate than was expected. It does not deal with any situation that may have arisen two or three weeks ago.

§ Mr. Benn
If there is nothing in the Supplementary Estimates in regard to the point I am making, I will not pursue it.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I will gladly give the right hon. Gentleman any information that I have.

§ Mr. Kelly
May I have a reply to the point I raised? I have made several attempts to get a reply.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
I can only tell the hon. Member that there is nothing in this Supplementary Estimate that affects the Tate Gallery in regard to the matter which he raised. No doubt when we have the money and when we know exactly the best method of employing it, we shall be able to go ahead with that work.

§ Mr. Mathers
You allowed me, Sir Dennis, to put a question to the right hon. Gentleman in regard to the National Library of Scotland and to ask why the work was not being proceeded with, I had hoped that he would have been prepared to answer.

§ Sir P. Sassoon
There had been delay in getting out the plans and therefore the work was not progressing in the way we had hoped, but it will come into next year's Vote.