HC Deb 29 June 1938 vol 337 cc1977-91

(1) If the Bacon Marketing Board so determines with respect to any period, such expenses as may be specified in the determination of the board, being expenses of or incidental to the transport, by or on behalf of registered curers, of pigs to which the determination applies, shall, to such extent as may be specified in the determination, be shared, in the manner hereinafter specified, among the registered curers in proportion to the number of pigs for which they are respectively accountable for that period.

(2) A determination under Sub-section (1) of this Section may be made applicable to all or any of the following pigs:

  1. (a) pigs delivered to registered curers during the period to which the determination relates under long contracts or contracts made in pursuance of a determination of the Development Board under Subsection (1) of Section eighteen of this Act, including pigs which, after being transported by or on behalf of a curer, are rejected by him;
  2. (b) pigs slaughtered in that period, being pigs which are, by virtue of the provisions of this Act relating to curers who produce pigs, to be treated for the purposes of Part IV of this Act as pigs sold under long contracts;
and references in this Section to the number of pigs for which a registered curer is accountable for any period to which such a determination relates shall be construed as references to the number of pigs to which that determination applies which in that period are so delivered to, or, as the case may be, slaughtered by or on behalf of, that curer.

(3) Any such determination—

  1. (a) may provide, as respects all or any specified classes of cases, that any pigs to which the determination applies shall he transported on behalf of the registered curer affected only by such person, in such manner, in pursuance of such contract and on such terms as may be specified (either generally or in relation to the particular curer or in relation to the particular pigs) in the determination, or, if and so far as the determination so provides, by the Bacon Marketing Board acting thereunder;
  2. (b) may provide, as respects all or any specified classes of cases, either that the board shall itself defray all or any of the expenses of or incidental to the transport, by or on behalf of registered curers, of such pigs as aforesaid, or that it shall repay to the registered curers affected all or any of the said expenses respectively incurred by them, or that it shall pay to each of the registered curers affected in respect of all or any of the said expenses respectively incurred by them, such sums as may be specified in that behalf in the determination.
  3. (c) may require that, in all or any specified classes of cases the registered curer affected shall insure any pigs to which the determination applies in such manner as may be specified (either generally or in 1978 relation to the particular curer or in relation to the particular pigs) in the determination, or if and so far as the determination so provides by the Bacon Marketing Board acting thereunder.

(4) Any such determination may require any registered curer to act as respects the exercise of any option which he has under any contract for the purchase of pigs to which the determination applies, being an option affecting the extent to which the pigs will be transported by or on behalf of a curer, in such manner as may be specified in the determination, or if and so far as the determination so provides, by the Bacon Marketing Board acting thereunder, and where any such requirement is made by any determination, the determination may require any registered curer affected to pay to the Bacon Marketing Board an amount equal to any payment made to him or any deduction allowed to him from the price of any pigs to which the determination applies, being a payment or deduction to which he becomes entitled by reason of the exercise or, as the case may be, the non-exercise, of the option in question.

(5) Every determination under any of the foregoing provisions of this Section shall require the payment to the Bacon Marketing Board by each registered curer, in respect of each pig for which he is accountable for the period to which the determination relates, of a contribution of an amount specified in the determination, being such amount as the board estimates is as nearly as may be equal to the total expenses which it will incur by reason of the determination divided by the number of pigs to which the determination applies:

Provided that the board, if it appears that the amount specified as aforesaid will be insufficient or more than sufficient to make good to it the said expenses, may amend the determination by fixing a higher or lower amount, and thereupon the determination shall be deemed always to have had effect as so amended and any sums underpaid by any curer to the board shall be recoverable from him by the board as a debt and any sums overpaid by any curer shall be repaid or allowed to him by the board.

(6) The Bacon Marketing Board shall, at least six weeks before the beginning of the period to which a determination under the foregoing provisions of this Section relates, publish a draft I the determination in such manner as it thinks best adapted for the purpose of bringing the matter to the notice of the curers affected, and shall consider any representations made to it during the four weeks following the date of the publication of the draft by or on behalf of any of those curers, and may then make the determination either in the form of the draft or with modifications.

(7) If any registered curer causes any pig to be transported or insured in contravention of any determination in force under this Section, the Bacon Marketing Board shall by resolution impose upon, and shall recover from, him a monetary penalty not exceeding one pound for each pig so transported or insured.

For the purposes of this Sub-section—

  1. (a) a curer who fails to insure a pig when he is required to do so by a determination shall be deemed to have caused that pig to be insured in contravention of that determination;
  2. (b) a curer who contravenes any provision of a determination requiring him to act in a particular manner as respects the exercise of an option shall be deemed to have caused each pig affected by the contravention to be transported in contravention of the determination.

(8) The power conferred by the foregoing provisions of this Section on the Bacon Marketing Board to make a determination with respect to any period shall be construed as including power to specify, as the period to which the determination relates, a period beginning with a specified date and ending at the end of the contract period within which that date falls or at such earlier time as may be determined by the board.

(9) References in the foregoing provisions of this Section to pigs shall, in relation to pigs slaughtered before being transported by or on behalf of the curer, be construed as including references to the carcases thereof.

(10) Any sum duly required to be paid to the Bacon Marketing Board by a determination under the foregoing provisions of this Section shall be recoverable by that board as a debt.

(11) The Bacon Marketing Board may—

  1. (a) contract with any person for the carriage by him, on behalf of any registered curer, of pigs or carcases of pigs;
  2. (b) enter into an arrangement with any person whereby that person undertakes to contract on specified terms with any registered curer, or any registered curer of a specified class, for the carriage on behalf of that curer of pigs or carcases of pigs;
  3. (c) enter into an arrangement with any person whereby that person undertakes to insure any registered curer, or any registered curer of a specified class, against loss in respect of pigs by death, or damage during transit, or by disease;
but, save in so far as a determination under the foregoing provisions of this Section applies—
  1. (i) a curer shall not be bound to avail himself of anything done by the board under this Sub-section; and
  2. (ii) if he does avail himself thereof with respect to any pigs or carcases, he shall repay to the board any sums which the board may become liable to pay to any other person in connection with the carriage of those pigs or carcases.

(12) References in this Section, in relation to pigs or carcases, to expenses of or incidental to the transport thereof, shall be deemed to include references to the cost of insurance and to any loss borne or sum payable by the registered curer in question in respect of death, damage, or loss of weight during transit or in respect of disease; and where a determination under this Section is so made as to relate to any losses so borne, a registered curer who receives any payment, or is, under any contract, allowed any deduction from the price payable by him, in return for an undertaking by him to bear the whole or any part of such a loss in the case of pigs to which the determination applies, shall pay to the board a sum equal to that payment or, as the case may be, that deduction.—[Mr. spens.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

6.5 p.m.

Mr. Spens

I beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

This new Clause is submitted as an attempted solution of one of the greatest outstanding difficulties that have been experienced in trying to make the marketing scheme work. It applies only, of course, to curers, and it is a suggestion analogous to that which the Minister has just moved in regard to the burden of allocation premiums. This is really to introduce a similar system as regards the burden, which varies very much between curer and curer, of transport and also of insurance. If in the equitable allocation of pigs an attempt is to be made to keep the factories at an economic throughput, it is essential that every obstacle in the way of that principle should if possible be removed. This new Clause will enable the Bacon Marketing Board under the direction of the Development Board to put forward a scheme for the control of the method of transport and for the costs of that transport, and to secure that it shall be pooled and borne equally among all the curers concerned. It becomes even of greater importance than it was in any previous contract period because, for the first time, we are not only casting the burden of carriage by road and rail on to the curing industry, but, under the Bill, the burden of carriage by sea from the islands has become a charge on the curers.

It is in order to try to achieve an equitable method of dealing with this transport burden that this Clause is put forward. It will enable the Bacon Marketing Board under the direction of the Development Board to issue a prescription which would give directions as to the method of transport to be used by any particular factory in order to obtain its pigs from the producers with whom that factory has entered into a contract; and not only pigs, but, in cases where pigs are slaughtered on the farm before being transported, the carcases of the pigs so slaughtered. It will give power to the board to prescribe that where a curer is using his own transport, as a number of them do, he shall be credited in respect of every pig carried in it. That will go to his credit in the general scheme. It will also enable the board in cases where curers have an option under contracts with producers to use the producers' own lorries, and it will enable the board to take advantage of that method of contract. No one can bind the future Development Board indefinitely, but the intention of the machinery laid down is that whatever is the most convenient method of transport should be used, whether it be road or rail or otherwise. It is hoped that thereby there will be a substantial saving of overhead costs of transport to the industry because at present, while, of course, the large curers probably make their arrangements as cheaply as it can be done, there are many cases where lorries are not full and where small consignments are sent at the best price that can be obtained.

It is believed that under the new Clause it would be possible for the two boards to work out a scheme which really would save the industry as a whole a very large sum in transport. If that can be done, it will be a substantial step on the road to rationalisation, and it is rather from that point of view that I look at it. It means for the individual curer a certain restriction of freedom of action, but when it is remembered that the board which will primarily be operating this pooling arrangement will be a board of his own industry, the individual curer ought to be reasonably satisfied that his interest will be fully regarded in the scheme. The Clause also requires that any prescription shall be fully published' and opportunities given to individual curers to make their objections. It is only after the draft has been open to public notice and criticism for a time that it can be put into force. Every prescription will be in the first instance experimental, and for a short period it will be subject to variation if, as one must anticipate, flaws are found in it.

Although, in my view, the previous attempts under the very limited powers in the existing bacon and pig marketing schemes assisted substantially, no one would be bold enough to say that they did not also cause a great deal of criticism, and in some cases a certain amount of hardship. Those were the only powers which were available to try and effect what is really an essential feature if we are to get this industry on to a really economic basis in the interests of the public. This Clause includes wide enough powers for the best use to be made of available transport, and it is hoped that my right hon. Friend will allow it to go into the Bill so as to put the two boards in a position to produce a scheme which, we believe, will be in the general interest of the industry, and, being in the interests of the industry, in the interests of the public and the consumer.

Sir Arnold Gridley

I beg to second the Motion.

6.14 p.m.

Mr. Price

I would like to see the Minister accept this new Clause. Like many other Clauses we have had to-day, it is very complicated and not easy to understand, but it seems to me that it embodies the right principle of pooling in transport. That is one of the things which was not in the last scheme, and its absence contributed very much to its failure. There was a good deal of opposition under the last scheme among producers who delivered pigs to factories by their own lorries and yet were charged railway rates. A pooling arrangement between road and rail is necessary in a scheme of this kind. The Milk Marketing Board has in hand an arrangement for regional pooling in conection with the delivery of milk. Under this Clause a similar arrangement can be come to in connection with this Bill. Further it seems to me that the responsibility for transport will now be shifted altogether to the curers, and no longer be a matter of concern to the producers, except in so far as a producer may have a lorry and he able to deliver to a factory and get credit for it in consequence. If the position is as the hon. and learned Member has explained it, I hope the Government will see their way to accept the Clause.

6.16 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

This new Clause has been commended to us by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) and supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Sir A. Gridley), and those two powerful names suggest that it is supported by both the Bacon Marketing Board and the Pigs Marketing Board, and I have therefore to consider the matter only from the point of view of the general purposes of the Bill and the public interest.

Mr. Alexander

The public interest.

Mr. Morrison

The new Clause is an enabling Clause and not mandatory in its character. It provides what I conceive to be a very useful piece of machinery which can be used by the board in order to make further economies and carry rationalisation in the transport of pigs still further, and as the main purpose of the Bill is to provide a more rational distribution of pigs and to provide carrying facilities, I think the Clause is ancillary to that purpose and I therefore propose to accept it.

Mr. T. Williams

In the interests of economy, would it not be just as well, as this is only an enabling Clause, to content ourselves with sending a copy of it to the Pigs Marketing Board and the Bacon Marketing Board and leave.it at that? Why embody in the Bill this long perambulating Clause which nobody will ever understand and which is only to be used by those boards if they wish?

Mr. Morrison

Quite apart from the great literary quality of this new Clause it is necessary to insert it in the Statute because the Agricultural Marketing Acts do not give power to the Bacon Marketing Board to concern themselves with the transport of pigs. I am advised that legislation in this form is necessary if this transport is to be within the powers of the board.

6.18 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

I did not want to intervene if anybody else wanted to speak, wishing to see how far there was support in the House for the principle of this Clause. The Minister knows that in the past I have been very much opposed to the manner in which the powers granted in the pigs marketing scheme were used, and I am still without any conviction that it is a good thing in the interests of the industry as a whole that a factory which buys pigs from a farm down the same road as the factory is in, and then has the pigs driven up the road to the factory, must pay a contribution to a railway company or a road transport company for the transport of those pigs, which the companies have never even seen. It is true that since I last put forward the suggestion a committee of investigation has reported in rather grandiloquent terms that the extraordinary process which I have described is in the public interest, and it is in the light of the Minister's reaction to this long and detailed Clause—not brought forward by the Minister, who is really responsible for this Bill, but by the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards—and to the decision of the committee of investigation that I have to make up my mind what to do.

I take it from the hon. and learned Member for Ashford (Mr. Spens) that if they get these powers they will show themselves to be eminently reasonable people. The trouble is that the House is asked to give these powers and then to trust not merely to the good offices of the present members of the board but to their successors. The House may be prepared to go a long way in giving powers to people whom it knows, but it is a different thing to leave these powers to their successors, of whom it has no knowledge. I am sure the hon. and learned Member for Ashford will agree that it is with a little trepidation that one would agree to the inclusion of powers of this character. Further, I should like to press the hon. and learned Member to explain the real meaning of these words in Sub-section (II): Save in so far as a determination under the foregoing provisions of this Section applies

  1. (i) a curer shall not be bound to availhimself of anything done by the board under this Sub-section, and
  2. (ii) if he does avail himself thereof with respect to any pigs or carcases, he shall repay to the board any sums which the board may become liable to pay to any other person in connection with the carriage of those pigs or carcases."
I should like to know what is the exact meaning of the words: Save in so far as a determination under the foregoing provisions of this Section applies. If the Bacon Marketing Board have arranged for a flat rate of transport and have an arrangement under which they contract with one insurance company alone, to insure all the pigs which are carried, and if I as a curer do not like those arrangements, am I free to say that I do not wish to avail myself of either the transport or insurance arrangement?

6.20 p.m.

Mr. Spens

The words have been put in for this reason, that there are bacon pigs and other pigs, and it may be that both for transport and insurance it would be possible to get cheaper rates for a contract which would cover both a producer's bacon pigs and non-bacon pigs. To the extent to which he is having bacon pigs transported or insured he comes under the determination and, quite frankly, has to do as he is told, but to the extent to which he is not bound by any determination then, of course, he is free to do what he thinks fit, and if he has availed himself of the arrangement he has to pay his proportion in respect of those other pigs. The right hon. Gentleman is harking back in his mind to the past. We depend upon a reasonable determination by the board to whom these enabling powers are given, and the right hon. Gentleman thinks that in the past some body has been unreasonable and is frightened that in future a similar body will be unreasonable. He is only expressing the views which I have expressed on many occasions in Committee, that the curing industry and, indeed, the producers are by this Bill putting themselves under the powers of a new Development Board whose future attitude we do not know, but the whole success of the scheme depends upon that body acting in a reasonable manner, and if I may venture to say so there is no more ground for suggesting that the Development Board will act unreasonably in respect of this Clause than in respect of all the hundred and one other matters over which they have control. I hope, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman will see his way to agree to the Clause, remembering that the last words will always be with the Development Board.

6.27 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

I should like to have permission to reply, because I wanted to know, before coming to a decision on the Clause, what was the view of the Mover. Having received his kind explanation I feel more than ever dead against the Clause. The enabling powers are such that there is no real escape for reasonable people under the powers which I have quoted in Sub-section (11) and the further powers in Sub-section (7), where it says: If any registered curer causes any pig to be transported or insured in contravention of any determination in force under this Section then all sorts of penalties will fall upon him. Take the case of a body like the co-operative organisation with which, as is well known, I am associated, which runs not only its transport but also its own insurance—has a very important insurance business. If it is said that we must conform to a block arrangement of insurance ordered by a joint decision of the Pigs and Bacon Marketing Boards, actually handing over our insurance to some other company, then we fundamentally object. In the same way we object if we are told that we must conform to some other transport arrangements when normally we should carry the pigs by our own vehicles. No such enabling terms ought to be put into the Bill. I do not think the Minister ought to have been so ready to accept this Clause without a further examination of the problem from that angle. The point in relation to insurance is one which he particularly ought to observe. In the case of appeal to the committee of investigation in regard to insurance, it was not found to be in the public interest that the Pigs Marketing Board should grant a monopoly of insurance of pigs to one company of its own nomination.

Mr. Spans

There is nothing in the proposed new Clause in regard to granting a monopoly, and there is no intention of monopoly.

Mr. Alexander

The hon. and learned Gentleman says that there is no intention. That was what made me offer my earlier remarks to him, and while I might be willing to trust a member of the marketing board with whom I have worked, and who would say that that was not going to be done, and while that would be all right, I must point out that we are dealing here not with correspondence between certain gentlemen but with the determination of the Statute and the question, What is the power? If that is the position under paragraph (i), I have a fundamental objection to Sub-section (7) because you could make what determination you liked and enforce it. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall) has considered the matter from that point of view. He has often intervened in the discussions on this Bill in the interests of the small curer, and it will be serious to him if this proposal goes through in this way. I make no criticism of the present members of the board, because I believe that I can trust them to meet the interests for which I speak fairly and squarely and to see that we get a reasonable deal. That is not the point, which is that this is to be a permanent part of the Statute, and unless we get an absolute guarantee I fundamentally object. I think that the Minister ought not to accept this proposed new Clause unless we get such guarantees as those for which I am asking.

6.32 p.m.

Mr. E. J. Williams

Are we not introducing by means of this Clause a principle to which Members of this House have objected from time to time? In the nature of things, boards have to administer certain industries, but we have complained occasionally that powers are handed to persons who have no legislative authority at all to do certain things which this House cannot question. We had an instance to-day of the use of the powers of the Executive in relation to the Privileges of this House, and here we have certain powers being given to persons who cannot be called to account. I object to the powers mentioned in this Clause being handed to an authority which cannot be called before Parliament to answer for its conduct, and therefore I object to the Clause being incorporated in the Bill. Could we have a reply from the Minister on this matter? I am not complaining about the personnel of the board but of a matter of vital principle, and I should like to have a further explanation from the Minister. I support my right hon. Friend who spoke just now, and who knows the personnel of the present board quite well. If a society like the Co-operative Wholesale Society does its own insurance work through the I.C.S., and if insurance should be taken out of their hands and put into the hands of certain nominated people whom the board have in mind, the interests of the co-operative movement generally would be prejudiced. From that aspect I support my right hon. Friend.

6.35 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

The mixed views which have been expressed upon this proposed new Clause illustrate the great difficulty which one has in trying to secure a desirable thing like an economical system of pooling transport charges. It is desirable in principle, although some particular interest may fear that they will be ridden over roughshod, and the people who are apprehensive would rather object to the benefits of combination than incur the dangers which they fear. The view I take is that the Bill contains provisions which make very remote the danger of injudicious or unfair action under this enabling Clause. I pass over the point about the Pigs Board coming into conflict with interests who can charge them with unfairness, and point out that the Bacon Board are not in the position of a producers' board under the agricultural marketing scheme pure and simple, because they are subject to the Development Board, whose consent must be obtained for any scheme for dealing with transport and insurance.

Mr. Alexander

If the right hon. Gentleman would guarantee us in advance by giving us a majority of the independent members on that board, I would accept his assurance.

Mr. Morrison

I cannot do that. The Development Board would have great difficulty in carrying out its functions fairly if there were a majority upon it of the organisations to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. There are provisions in the Bill whereby a committee of investigation can look at once into any complaint of unfairness by the board. As to giving the board a blank cheque, we are doing nothing of the kind. There is the check of the committee of investigation. Although the possibility of injustice and unfairness is very remote, it has been suggested that there should be some further safeguards which the right hon. Gentleman thinks are desirable, to prevent anything of that kind arising. I would advise that the best course to adopt in the circumstances, as the object is undoubtedly desirable, is to accept the new Clause and to let me consider any representations that are made in regard to it, in order to prevent the injustice or unfairness suggested by the right hon. Gentleman.

Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."

The House divided: Ayes, 197; Noes, 128.

Division No. 256.] AYES. [4.20 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Birchall, Sir J. D. Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Boothby, R. J. G. Chorlton, A. E. L.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Bossom, A. C. Christie, J. A.
Albery, Sir Irving Bower, Comdr. R. T. Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) Bracken, B. Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead)
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Brass, Sir W. Clarry, Sir Reginald
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)
Apsley, Lord Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Colville, Rt. Hon. John
Aske, Sir R. W. Bull, B. B. Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.)
Assheton, R. Bullock, Capt. M. Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Burgin, Rt. Hon. E. L. Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs)
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Burton, Col. H. W. Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)
Atholl, Duchess of Butler, R. A. Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Campbell, Sir E. T. Cranborne, Viscount
Barrie, Sir C. C. Cortland, J. R. H. Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page
Baxter, A. Beverley Carver, Major W. H. Crooke, Sir J. Smedley
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Cary, R. A. Cross, R. H.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Crossley, A. C.
Beechman, N. A. Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) Crowder, J. F. E.
Beit, Sir A. L. Channon, H. Cruddas, Col. B.
Bernays, R. H. Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Culverwell, C. T.
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Dawson, Sir P. Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
De Chair, S. S. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Rowlands, G.
De la Bère, R. Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Denman, Hon. R. D. Leach, Sir J. W. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Denville, Alfred Lees-Jones, J. Russell, Sir Alexander
Doland, G. F. Leigh, Sir J. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Donner, P. W. Leighton, Major B. E. P. Salmon, Sir I.
Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Samuel, M. R. A.
Dower, Major A. V. G. Levy, T. Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Liddall, W. S. Sandys, E. D.
Duggan, H. J. Lipson, D. L. Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P.
Duncan, J. A. L. Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. Scott, Lord William
Dunglass, Lord Loftus, P. C. Shaw, Major P. S. (Waventree)
Eden, Rt. Hon. A. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Edge, Sir W. MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Ellis, Sir G. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.
Elliston, Capt. G. S. MacDonald, Sir Murdoch (Inverness) Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Elmley, Viscount Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Emmott, C. E. G. C. McKie, J. H. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Emrys-Evans, P. V. Maclay, Hon. J. P. Smithers, Sir W.
Errington, E. Macnamara, Major J. R. L. Somerset, T.
Erskine-Hill, A. G. Macquisten, F. A. Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Everard, W. L. Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Findlay, Sir E. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Fox, Sir G. W. G. Markham, S. F. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)
Fremantle, Sir F. E. Marsden, Commander A. Stewart, William J. (Belfast, S.)
Fyfe, D. P. M. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.
Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)
Gluckstein, L. H. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Mills, Sir F. (Layton, E.) Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Gridley, Sir A. B Mitcheson, Sir G. G. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Moreing, A. C. Tasker, Sir R. I.
Grimston, R. V. Morgan, R. H. Tate, Mavis C.
Gritten, W. G. Howard Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Thomas, J. P. L.
Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Hambro, A. V. Morrison, Rt. Hon W. S. (Cirencester) Titchfield, Marquess of
Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Tree, A. R. L. F.
Harbord, A. Munro, P. Turton, R. H.
Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Nall, Sir J. Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan
Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. O'Connor, Sir Terence J. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Patrick, C. M. Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S.
Hepworth, J. Petherick, M. Warrender, Sir V.
Higgs, W. F. Pickthorn, K. W. M. Waterhouse, Captain C.
Holmes, J. S. Pilkington, R. Watt, Major G. S. Harvie
Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Ponsonby, Col. C. E. Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Hopkinson, A. Porritt, R. W. Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)
Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Howitt, Dr. A. B. Procter, Major H. A. Williams, C. (Torquay)
Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Purbrick, R. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport) Radford, E. A. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Hulbert, N. J. Ramsbotham, H. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Hume, Sir G. H. Ramsden, Sir E. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Hunloke, H. P. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) Womersley, Sir W. J.
Hunter, T. Rayner, Major R. H. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Hurd, Sir P. A. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury) TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Jones, L. (Swansea W.) Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) Captain Dugdale and Major
Keeling, E. H. Reid, W. Allan (Derby) Herbert.
Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett) Collindridge, F. Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Cove, W. G. Grenfell, D. R.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'Isbr.) Dagger, G. Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)
Anderson. F. (Whitehaven) Dalton, H. Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)
Banfield, J. W. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)
Barnes, A. J. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)
Batey, J. Day, H. Harris, Sir P. A.
Bellenger, F. J. Debbie, W. Heyday, A.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Benson, G. Ede, J. C. Henderson, J. (Ardwick)
Broad, F. A. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Henderson, T. (Tradeston)
Bromfield, W. Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Hills, A. (Pontefract)
Burke, W. A. Gallecher, W. Holdsworth, H.
Cassells, T. Gardner, B. W. Hopkin, D.
Charleton, H. C. Garro Jones, G. M. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)
Cluse, W. S. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) John, W.
Cocks, F. S. Green, W. H. (Deptford) Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.
Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Sorensen, R. W.
Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Muff, G. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Jones, J. J. (Silvertown) Owen, Major G. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Paling, W. Taylor, R. J. (Morpoth)
Kelly, W. T. Parker, J. Thorne, W.
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Parkinson, J. A. Tinker, J. J.
Kirby, B. V. Pearson, A. Tomlinson, G.
Kirkwood, D. Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. Viant, S. P.
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Price, M. P. Walkden, A. G.
Lawson, J. J. Pritt, D. N. Walker, J.
Leach, W. Quibell, D. J. K. Watkins, F. C.
Leslie, J. R. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Watson, W. McL.
Logan, D. G. Ridley, G. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Macdonald, G. (Ince) Ritson, J. Welsh, J. C.
McEntee, V. La T. Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom) Westwood, J.
McGhee, H. G. Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) White, H. Graham
McGovern, J. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
MacLaren, A. Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) Wilkinson, Ellen
Maclean, N. Sanders, W. S. Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)
MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Sexton, T. M. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Mander, G. le M. Silkin, L. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Marshall, F. Simpson, F. B. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Mathers, G. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Maxien, J. Smith, E. (Stoke) Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Messer, F. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees. (K'ly)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Smith, T. (Normanton) TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Groves and Mr. Adamson.

Question put, and agreed to.

Division No. 257.] AYES. [6.39 p.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Errington, E. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Erskine-Hill, A. G. Munro, P.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) Nicolson, Hon. H. G.
Albery, Sir Irving Findlay, Sir E. O'Connor, Sir Terence J.
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Fox, Sir G. W. G. O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Owen, Major G.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Fyfe, D. P. M. Peaks, O.
Apsley, Lord Gibson, Sir C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) Peters, Dr. S. J.
Aske, Sir R. W. Gledhill, G. Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Astor, Viscountess (Plymouth, Sutton) Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Porritt, R. W.
Atholl, Duchess of Gridley, Sir A. B. Procter, Major H. A.
Balfour, G. (Hampstead) Grimston, R. V. Radford, E. A.
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Gritten, W. G. Howard Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Balniel, Lord Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) Ramsbotham, H.
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. Hambro, A. V. Ramsden, Sir E.
Belt, Sir A. L. Harbord, A. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Bernays, R. H. Harvey, Sir G. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)
Boyce, H. Leslie Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Bracken, B. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Remer, J. R.
Brass, Sir W. Hely-Hutchinson, M. R. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Broadbridge, Sir G. T. Hepworth, J. Ropner, Colonel L.
Brown, Col D. C. (Hexham) Herbert, A. P. (Oxford U.) Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Higgs, W. F. Rowlands, G.
Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Bull, B. B. Holdsworth, H. Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A.
Burton, Col. H. W. Holmes, J. S. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Campbell, Sir E. T. Hopkinson, A. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Cartland, J. R H. Howitt, Dr. A. B. Salmon, Sir I.
Cary, R. A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Samuel, M. R. A.
Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Hume, Sir G. H. Sandeman, Sir N. S.
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Hunter, T. Scott, Lord William
Channon, H. James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. Selley, H. R.
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Joel, D. J. B. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Christie, J. A. Jones, L. (Swansea W.) Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.
Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. Keeling, E. H. Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st)
Clarke, Frank (Dartford) Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Clarry, Sir Reginald Lamb, Sir J. Q. Somerset, T.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Conant, Captain R. J. E. Leech, Sir J. W. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Lees-Jones, J. Spens, W. P.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.
Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'ge) Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) Levy, T. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Cross, R. H. Liddall, W. S. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Crossley, A. C. Lipson, D. L. Tate, Mavls C.
Crowder, J. F. E. Little, Sir E. Graham- Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Cruddas, Col. B. Llewellin, Colonel J. J. Thorneycroft, G. E. P.
Culverwell, C. T. Loftus, P. C. Titchfield, Marquess of
Davies, C. (Montgomery) Mebane, W. (Huddersfield) Turton, R. H.
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan
De la Bère, R. MacDonald, Sir Murdech (Inverness) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Denman, Hon. R. D. McKie, J. H. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Doland, G. F. Maclay, Hon. J. P. Warrender, Sir V.
Donner, P. W. Macquisten, F. A. Waterhouse, Captain C.
Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Wayland, Sir W. A.
Drewe, C. Markham, S. F. Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham)
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Dunsen, J. A. L. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Dunglass, Lord Mills, Sir F. (Layton, E.) Womersley, Sir W. J.
Eastwood, J. F. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Edmondson, Major Sir J. Mitcheson, Sir G. G.
Ellis, Sir G. Moreing, A. C. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Elliston, Capt. G. S. Morgan, R. H. Major Herbert and Major Harvie
Emmott, C. E. G. C. Morris-Jones, Sir Henry Watt.
NOES
Adams, D. (Consett) Buchanan, G. Dobbie, W.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Burke, W. A. Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)
Adamson, W. M. Charleton, H. C. Ede, J. C.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Chater, D. Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Cluse, W. S. Foot, D. M.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Frankel, D.
Banfield, J. W. Cocks, F. S. Gallacher, W.
Barnes, A. J. Collindridge, F. Gardner, B. W.
Bellenger, F. J. Cove, W. G. Garro Jones, G. M.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W Daggar, G. George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)
Benson, G. Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Graham, D. M. (Hamilton)
Broad, F. A. Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A
Bromfield, W. Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Grenfell, D R.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) MacLaren, A. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Maclean, N. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)
Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Mander, G. le M. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Marshall, F. Sorensen, R. W.
Harris, Sir P. A. Maxton, J. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Hayday, A. Messer, F. Stokes, R. R.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Milner, Major J. Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Montague, F. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Thorne, W.
Hills, A. (Pontefract) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Tinker, J. J.
Hopkin, D. Muff, G. Viant, S. P.
Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Naylor, T. E. Walker, J.
Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Oliver, G. H. Watkins, F. C.
John, W. Paling, W. Watson, W. McL.
Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Parker, J. Wedgwood, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Parkinson, J. A. Welsh, J. C.
Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Pearson, A. Westwood, J.
Kelly, W. T. Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. White, H. Graham
Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Quibell, D. J. K. Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Kirby, B. V. Richards, R. (Wrexham) Wilkinson, Ellen
Kirkwood, D. Ridley, G. Williams, D. (Swansea, E.)
Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Riley, B. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Leach, W. Ritson, J. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Leonard, W. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Leslie, J. R. Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Logan, D. G. Sanders, W. S. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Lunn, W. Sexton, T. M.
Macdonald, G. (Ince) Silkin, L. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
McEntee, V. La T. Silverman, S. S. Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers.
McGhee, H. G. Simpson, F. B.

Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.