HC Deb 29 June 1938 vol 337 cc2068-71

11.11 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I beg to move, in page 41, to leave out lines 22 to 26.

This Amendment, and the next, is a little more than a drafting Amendment. It deals with the offences which are to be penalised. The production of an agricultural product as opposed to its sale cannot be an offence against an agricultural marketing scheme, and cannot therefore be the subject of a penalty imposed by an agricultural marketing board. It may happen, also, that the offence is committed by a person who is not registered with the Bacon Marketing Board, and therefore not within the jurisdiction of the board. The new provision gets over this difficulty and enables the Bill to be enforced not only against members who are registered but against anyone who contravenes its provisions.

11.13 p.m.

Mr. H. G. Williams

I understand that the object of the Amendment is to take away from the board the powers of a court of justice. With that I agree. But under the words which it is proposed to leave out there is a monetary penalty only for the grave offence of producing something. By the proposed change the monetary penalty is reduced but there is introduced the possibility of imprisonment as an alternative, and honestly I am a little surprised that the public of this country has not become indignant that if a man's sole offence is that he has produced bacon he is to be sent to prison. I really think that we ought to consider these words with some care. I do not like this kind of legislation. I hate the whole of these marketing boards. I have no use for them at all. I do not think we should set up this penalty of going to prison merely because a man has done a useful thing in increasing the food of this country.

11.14 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

It is not a question of fining anyone or sending him to prison for producing something, but for producing something in contravention of this Clause, and if he will look at the provisions the hon. Member will see that it makes provision for the marking of carcases so that people shall know where they are in regard to what is being produced. There is the possibility of falsifying a mark in contravention of an order. It is not a question of an offence for producing something.

11.15 p.m.

Mr. Turton

I agree with what the Minister has said, but I do not understand why, in the interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage, he has come to think so much less of this offence that he wants to reduce the penalty from £250 to £20. I hope that he will reconsider this matter, and consider whether, in another place, the penalty should not be made more than £20. I do not think any of us want to see offenders sent to prison for this offence, but I think they should be fined a larger sum. Probably they are men who could afford to pay a large fine and to whom £20 would not be much. Therefore, I hope that in another place the fine will be increased.

11.16 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

I hope that the Minister will not reconsider this matter, because I think it would be an objectionable course for the House, which represents the people, to leave it to another place to increase penalties. If the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton) wishes the penalty to be increased, why does he not move a manuscript Amendment? I should very much object to the House handing over to another place the increasing of penalties against people whom we represent. I hope the Minister will give no such undertaking. I thought that I saw him nod his head affirmatively to the hon. Member.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I meant that I would consider the matter.

Mr. Alexander

I ask the Minister for an assurance that the penalty will not be increased, unless it is done in this House.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

If any Amendment were made in another place, it would have no effect unless this House agreed to it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made:

In page 41, line 27, at the end, insert: (a) knowingly causes or permits any bacon to be produced in contravention of this Section or."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

11.17 p.m.

Mr. Ramsbotham

I beg to move, in page 42, line 12, at the end, to insert: (6) The Development Board may pay to the Pigs Marketing Board such sums, if any, as it thinks fit towards the expenses of the Pigs Marketing Board under this Section. This Amendment deals with the Development Board and the Pigs Marketing Board. The Pigs Marketing Board feels, I think reasonably, that it ought not to be required to pay the whole cost of marking imported carcases, such carcases not being subject to the payment of any levies to that board. The Amendment, by enabling the Development Board to make a grant for that service, would meet the definite complaint of the Pigs Marketing Board.

11.18 p.m.

Mr. Alexander

Will the Minister tell us from where the Development Board's funds come? The expenses of the Pigs Marketing Board are to be subsidised by the Development Board. I suppose that power is being taken in the Bill for levies to be made for the Development Board. Is this another move to put a little more of the general expenses on the bacon curers and less upon the producers?

Mr. Turton

It comes under Clause 35.

Mr. Alexander

I do not think so. This Amendment places some of the cost on the Development Board, and I want to know where the Development Board is going to get its funds from.

Mr. Ramsbotham

I think the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Hillsborough (Mr. Alexander) has overlooked Clause 35, Sub-section (1), which states: There shall be paid to the Development Board—

  1. (a) by every registered producer of pigs who delivers pigs to a registered curer under a long contract;
  2. (b) by every registered curer who causes to be graded and marked…"
That is the Clause under which the contributions are procured.

Mr. Alexander

That is what I thought. The Development Board has funds which come from two sources, a levy on the curers and a levy on the pig producers, and the Pigs Marketing Board has its own separate system of levies on the pig producers. This is another clever little move for getting part of the expenses of the Pigs Marketing Board met out of the joint fund of the Development Board. It is another small extra charge in the long run upon the curer for the special benefit of the poor pig producers, who do not get anything according to some people. I draw the attention of the House to this process which is going on.

Amendment agreed to.