SPAIN.

HC Deb 27 June 1938 vol 337 cc1501-13

2. Mr. Day

asked the Prime Minister what has been the result of the inquiries made by His Majesty's representative at Burgos with reference to the possibility of arranging for the release of the 177 British subjects held as prisoners of war by General Franco's administration; and will be give particulars of any progress that has been made on the subject?

Mr. Butler

Further progress has been made with a proposal that 100 of the British prisoners held by the Burgos authorities should be exchanged for 100 Italian prisoners in the hands of the Spanish Government. The Burgos authorities have agreed to this plan and the views of the Spanish Government are at present awaited. The too British prisoners concerned have been moved from San Pedro de Cardena, near Burgos, to Palencia.

Mr. Day

Will the Minister also make representations to see that the personal belongings and money which the people had when they were captured, are returned?

Mr. Butler

I will see that the hon. Member's suggestion is considered.

Mr. Leach

Who are the Burgos authorities, and where do they get their authority?

3. Miss Wilkinson

asked the Prime Minister what steps are being taken to see that the Portuguese frontier and the insurgent-controlled ports are as effectively closed to the passage of material as is the French frontier?

Mr. Butler

The efforts of His Majesty's Government are being directed towards effecting a restoration of the complete scheme of observation on land and sea in accordance with the Non-Intervention Committee's plan. This will apply equally to the ports and frontiers of both sides in Spain.

Miss Wilkinson

Seeing that the hon. Member has been giving pretty much that answer for the last 12 months, without any effect, and in view of the fact that the wastage of munitions cannot possibly be made up from home sources, is it not time that, having hermetically sealed the French frontier, they should see that something active is done in regard to the Portuguese frontier?

Mr. Butler

I have already reported considerable progress in the Non-Intervention Committee in regard to this matter.

Mr. Thurtle

Is it a fact that the Portuguese frontier is still open?

Mr. Butler

The scheme of observation has been suspended on the Portuguese frontier.

Miss Wilkinson

Does that mean that the Portuguese frontier is open, while the French frontier has been closed on direct representation from His Majesty's Government?

Mr. Butler

I cannot accept the case as represented by the hon. Lady, but the fact is that the French frontier has recently been closed, and some time ago the scheme of observation was suspended on all frontiers.

4. Miss Wilkinson

asked the Prime Minister what guarantees he has received from the Italian Government that no war material will be sent to Spain following this agreement; and will that apply to the aeroplanes which travel from Italian territory to bomb Barcelona, returning immediately?

Mr. Butler

It is proposed that the undertakings already given under the Non-Intervention Agreement will be reaffirmed in the draft resolution which is now under examination by the Non-Intervention Committee. As regards the last part of the question, I am not aware that Italian aeroplanes have acted in this manner, but the undertakings to which I have referred would in the opinion of His Majesty's Government undoubtedly cover such activities.

Miss Wilkinson

The hon. Member tells the House so often that they have received affirmation and re-affirmation of the Non-Intervention Committee's draft proposals, but when are they to be put into operation equally on both sides?

Mr. Butler

As I have stated recently, we have very considerable progress to report, and we hope that the scheme will be put into operation as soon as possible.

Miss Rathbone

Has the hon. Member seen the statement in the Rome and Berlin Press of yesterday, saying that the 17 ships that were sunk between 3rd and 24th June had been bombed by Italian aeroplanes of the Falchi type, and that they had come from the Balearic Islands? Does he want anything better than that to prove that they are Italian aeroplanes?

Mr. Butler

The question refers to aeroplanes coming from Italian territory.

Sir Percy Harris

Is the hon. Member aware that a fresh batch of pilots has been sent from Italy to Spain? Does that come within the arrangements of the Non-Intervention Committee?

Mr. Gallacher

Does the hon. Member mean that the Balearic Islands are not Italian territory?

5. Mr. G. Strauss

asked the Prime Minister whether it is his intention to pursue further the demand made to the Burgos authorities that strong disciplinary action should be taken against the crew of the aircraft responsible for the deliberate attack on the "Thorpehall" off Valencia on 24th May?

Mr. Butler

The British Agent at Burgos has been instructed to inquire of the Burgos authorities what action they have taken in the matter.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Have His Majesty's Government made similar representations in regard to airmen who bombed other British ships in recent weeks?

Mr. Butler

I was asked a specific question, and I have given a specific answer.

Mr. Wedgwood Benn

Can the hon. Member say when the British Agent is expected back?

Mr. Butler

I presume when he has got the reply.

Mr. Benn

Does the hon. Member mean that he does not know when the British Agent is expected back?

Mr. Butler

He is expected directly he has the reply which we have asked him to get from the Burgos authorities.

Mr. G. Strauss

Does the hon. Member appreciate that it is about a month since the request was made, and does he realise that it looks very foolish in the eyes of the world that strenuous demands of this sort should be made month after month and no action taken to see that the demands are enforced, or that the outrages cease? Moreover, is the hon. Member aware that as a direct result of the action of His Majesty's Government two more ships have to-day been bombed and three more sailors murdered?

8. Mr. Cary

asked the Prime Minister whether he will inform British merchant shipping companies trading in Spanish waters that no obstacle will be placed in the way of British shipping companies who desire to equip their ships with suitable anti-aircraft guns of modem design for the purpose of warding off unprovoked attacks from any aeroplane engaged in the Spanish civil war?

19. Sir Walter Smiles

asked the Prime Minister whether there is any objection to shipowners who are sending their steamers to ports in Republican Spain arming these steamers with machine guns on anti-aircraft mountings?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain)

In reply to a question by the hon. Member for Derby (Mr. Noel-Baker), on 2nd June, reasons were given why His Majesty's Government did not desire to encourage such a measure. Further consideration of the suggestion has revealed additional difficulties and confirmed the view then taken by His Majesty's Government.

Mr. Cary

In view of the bombing and destruction of two British ships this morning at Alicante and Valencia, will not the Prime Minister indicate to the Non-Intervention Committee that the British Government would be prepared to co-operate in supplying British merchant ships with mountings for antiaircraft guns firing tracer bullets to deal with unprovoked attacks by aeroplanes flying low?

The Prime Minister

The British Government have considered this matter. A good many difficulties arise in connection with it, and I am informed that the fitting of merchant vessels with antiaircraft guns would require structural alterations.

Mr. Benjamin Smith

Did not the Prime Minister say last week that it was the duty of private owners to supply these anti-aircraft guns?

Sir W. Smiles

Is it not the case that the fitting of anti-aircraft mountings for machine guns is only a very light equipment?

Mr. Petherick

Can the Prime Minister say whether the mounting of such guns on British ships would not practically make them warships and would be an act of intervention?

Mr. Attlee

Are we to gather from the Prime Minister's answer that it is impossible now or at any time to fit antiaircraft guns on ships of the British Mercantile Marine? If so, will British merchant ships be defenceless against aircraft in the event of war?

The Prime Minister

No, Sir. That is not the reply.

Mr. Attlee

Will the Prime Minister explain why it is impossible to do it now?

The Prime Minister

I did not say it was impossible. I said that it could not be done without structural alterations.

Mr. Kirkwood

Arising out of the reply—

Mr. Speaker

We cannot have any more supplementaries on this question.

16. Mr. Garro Jones

asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have addressed their attention to the terms upon which a truce or termination of hostilities in Spain may be brought about; and, if not, whether such proposals will now be prepared and set down as a basis of consideration for the combatant authorities and the interested Powers?

The Prime Minister

As I informed the hon. Member for West Leyton (Mr. Sorensen) on 14th June, His Majesty's Government will be ready to propose mediation either alone or in conjunction with other countries at any time when the prospects of successful action appear favourable.

17. Mr. Garro Jones

asked the Prime Minister whether any inquiry has been made of the head of the Italian Government as to whether he is prepared to associate himself with endeavours to bring about a truce or termination of hostilities in Spain; and, if not, whether he proposes to make any such request in the immediate future?

Mr. Butler

As I have previously informed the House, His Majesty's Government will gladly take any favourable opportunity to bring about a truce or the termination of the war in Spain either alone or in conjunction with others, and with this object in view they keep constantly in touch with the Italian and other foreign Governments whose cooperation might be helpful.

Mr. Garro Jones

Would it be a fair deduction from that answer, then, that the Government satisfied themselves that at the present time the Italian Government would not be prepared to associate themselves with any proposals for the termination of hostilities?

Mr. Butler

I am afraid I am not prepared at the present moment to add anything to the answer I have given.

Miss Rathbone

Would it not be better that any proposals for mediation should arise from Powers regarded as more impartial than either the Italian Government or His Majesty's Government?

18. Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

asked the Prime Minister whether he has obtained the views of the Spanish Government on the proposal put forward by General Franco for the establishment of neutral ports for British ships trading with Spain?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir. It will be remembered that this proposal originated from General Franco's administration, and it has first been found necessary to explore it further with that administration before approaching the Spanish Government.

Lieut.-Commander Fletcher

Is it intended to consult the Spanish Government before any affirmative decision is arrived at on this point?

Mr. Butler

Yes, Sir. It is our intention that the Spanish Government should be consulted in this matter.

21. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Prime Minister how many British ships have been sunk and how many others have been attacked on the high seas by General Franco's armed forces since 29th October, 1937?

Mr. Butler

Three British ships have been sunk on the high seas during this period, and three others attacked. One only of these cases occurred during the last four months.

22. Mr. Noel-Baker

asked the Prime Minister whether the recent agreement concerning the evacuation of foreign troops from Spain includes provision for measures of international control to prevent the introduction of foreign aircraft and air personnel into Spain?

Mr. Butler

As regards aircraft, I have nothing to add to the reply given on 1st June to a question by the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander). As regards air personnel, these fall under the category of foreign volunteers whom the countries parties to the Non-Intervention Agreement have already undertaken to prevent from proceeding to Spain.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Are we to understand that in the new arrangement nothing further has been done to control the introduction of air material?

Mr. Butler

No, Sir. If the hon. Gentleman will refer to my previous statement, he will see that we must await a public statement from the Non-Intervention Committee before we can see what they have to say in this matter.

Duchess of Atholl

Are we to understand that the Non-Intervention Committee really is considering measures to prevent the introduction of foreign aircraft into Spain?

Mr. Butler

It is doing its best to find a method of doing so.

Mr. Benn

Does the hon. Gentleman mean that the proceedings of the Committee are so secret that Members of the House of Commons cannot be informed of them?

Mr. Butler

If the right hon. Gentleman had done me the honour of listening to my replies for some months past, he would have known that I have always said that their proceedings are confidential, but there is always a Press communique issued at the end of their meetings.

Mr. Cocks

It is the most ridiculous body in the world.

23. Miss Rathbone

asked the Prime Minister how many British ships have been sunk or damaged, and how many of the seamen serving on British ships killed or injured, since his warning to the Burgos authorities that a continuance of such practices must interfere with the friendly relations between them and the British Government; and in what form he intends to implement this warning?

Mr. Butler

Since the Prime Minister's statement on 14th June, two British ships have been sunk, one seriously damaged and three slightly damaged, while two men serving aboard British ships have been killed and two slightly injured. As regards the last part of the question, I have nothing to add to the speech of the Prime Minister on 23rd June.

Mr. G. Strauss

Can the Minister say whether there is any precedent for a Government in this country to insist that a foreign Government should take a certain line or desist from certain actions, and then not to follow it up by any effective action?

Mr. Butler

On the contrary, we have followed up every single case to the best of our ability, and the Prime Minister has repeatedly announced the recent steps which the Government have decided on.

Vice-Admiral Taylor

What is meant by the expression "at their own risk" when these ships are warned before entering Spanish territorial waters?

24. Miss Rathbone

asked the Prime Minister whether, as the port of Gandia is purely British property, cannot be regarded as a military objective and could not be bombed otherwise than deliberately, His Majesty's Government will provide it with anti-aircraft guns or some other form of protection?

Mr. Butler

The port of Gandia is leased to a British company, but it remains part of the territory of Spain. If, therefore, His Majesty's Government provided antiaircraft protection for the port, this would amount to sending British forces to protect British property in a foreign country where a state of war exists, and would be taking part in the war which, as the Prime Minister has frequently explained, His Majesty's Government are not prepared to do.

Miss Rathbone

Was not the Prime Minister's objection to sending warships in general circumstances that any guns they might fire would be confused with an attack upon military objectives, and why should not warships be sent with anti-aircraft guns?

Mr. Poole

Does the hon. Gentleman mean to infer that it would be establishing a precedent to send British forces to protect British property in a foreign country in a war?

Mr. Butler

The port of Gandia is part of the territory of Spain, and what I said was that to send British forces to protect British property in a foreign country where a state of war exists would mean taking part in that war.

Mr. Attlee

How is it that British warships are on the Yangtse-kiang?

Mr. Butler

If the right hon. Gentleman refers to China, there the position is different, because at various places we have Treaty rights.

Mr. A. V. Alexander

Will not the Under-Secretary compare this case that is put by the hon. Member with the announcement in the Press that the Italians propose to protect Italian property in the Balearic Islands during the war in Spain? Why cannot the British Government take equal steps, if the Italians can, to defend its nationals?

Mr. Butler

I am proud to answer for the British Government on all these questions.

Mr. Leach

On a point of Order. I desire to call your attention, Sir, to the next three questions. The first two contain a reference to "the Minister for Foreign Affairs in nationalist Spain," and the third contains a reference to the "nationalist troops." In my submission, the only Government in Spain that is entitled to possess a Foreign Minister or to have the word "nationalist" applied to it, is the Government with which we, despite certain evidence to the contrary, are in friendly relations. These three questions must, therefore, constitute an affront to the established Government in Spain.

Mr. Speaker

That is not a point for me.

25. Brigadier-General Sir Henry Croft

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the official statement of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in nationalist Spain that 12 towns in the Bielsa zone were totally destroyed by systematic incendiarism and that 2,000 families in that district have been left homeless and robbed of their cattle; and whether any steps will be taken to condemn these assaults on the property of civilians by armed men prior to their escape into France?

Mr. Butler

While His Majesty's Government deplore the sufferings caused to the Spanish people during the civil war, they do not feel able to pass judgment on particular incidents where the facts of the case are by their nature very difficult to establish.

Sir H. Croft

In view of the proposal, which is welcomed in all parts of the House, that an international committee should visit Republican territory in Spain with reference to bombing outrages, could not such a committee also visit the spots where recent happenings have occurred with such disastrous results to the poor peasants?

Mr. Butler

I do not think that at this stage we can enlarge the terms of reference of the proposed Commission.

Mr. G. Strauss

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that this story was issued by the Burgos authorities one or two days before Franco's troops entered Castellon?

26. Sir H. Croft

asked the Prime Minister whether his attention has been called to the official statement of the Minister for Foreign Affairs in Nationalist Spain that the president of the provincial council in Castellon had 600 persons assassinated just prior to evacuation; and will any steps be taken to express abhorrence at such barbarity?

Mr. Butler

His Majesty's Minister at Barcelona has been asked to furnish a report on this matter.

27. Sir H. Croft

asked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that a premature relief of Castellon was deliberately staged by the Republican authorities in Castellon, and 2,000 of the civilian population who welcomed what they imagined were Nationalist troops were then killed by the fire of militiamen, their bodies being subsequently found by the Nationalist army; and what steps he proposes to take by way of protest to the Republican Government.

Mr. Butler

I have not up to the present received any information on this matter.

Mr. Thurtle

On a point of Order. May I draw your attention, Sir, to the fact that this question contains a very vile suggestion against the troops of Republican Spain? May I suggest to you that no question of this kind should be allowed to be put on the Order Paper unless it is absolutely proved that it is well-founded?

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member must remember that in questions many suggestions are made.

Sir Archibald Sinclair

Further to that point of Order. Surely, it is very unusual that in a question an allegation should be made that the troops of a friendly Power have, in fact, organised a massacre of their own subjects in their own country? Surely, that is a quite exceptional and outrageous use of the Order Paper of this House.

Mr. Garro Jones

Further on that point of Order. May I also draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that the question on the Order Paper refers to action by "the republican authorities," which presumably applies to the Spanish Government, with which we are in friendly relations; and would it not be wise to disallow questions of this extremely partial and provocative nature, which are contrary to every rule, tradition and practice governing questions in this House?

Mr. Gallacher

In view of the fact that every Member in this House understands that the statement in this question is a sheer fabrication, can nothing be done about it?

Sir H. Croft

Arising out of the reply, may I ask my hon. Friend whether he will take steps to make immediate inquiries?

Mr. Benn

On a point of Order. Would it commend itself to you, Mr. Speaker, to inquire from the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) whether he is prepared to accept personal responsibility for the statements that appear in the question?

Mr. Speaker

There are so many statements made from all sorts of sources by hon. Members in questions that I am not sure whether any hon. Member would be prepared to accept responsibility for them, and I am afraid that I cannot do anything in the matter further than asking that hon. Members themselves should exercise care in the framing of their questions.

Mr. Benjamin Smith

Is this not a case of an assertion rather than a question?

Sir H. Croft

On a point of Order. May I be permitted to say that this was an official statement from a Government official? [HON. MEMBERS: "Which Government?"] One of the Governments.

Mr. Speaker

I think there is really nothing more to be said about it.

Mr. Garro Jones

May I, with the greatest respect, submit to you, Mr. Speaker, that it is desirable that the long established practice which governs the putting of questions on the Order Paper of the House should not be frittered away by failure to give definite Rulings, when such Rulings are called for. I, therefore, wish to ask specifically whether it is or is not in order for an hon. Member to place on the Order Paper a question imputing a treacherous and base action to a Government and the officials of a Government with which we are in friendly relations; and if that is not in order can the hon. and gallant Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) be requested to withdraw his question in its present form?

Mr. Churchill

Further to that point of Order. Will you, Sir, bear in mind the great importance of preserving a wide latitude in Parliamentary Questions?

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) is finding fault with me in the discharge of my duties, in saying that I have not given a definite Ruling, I would point out that the Ruling which I have given on this matter is that all Members of the House should be careful in framing their questions so as to avoid giving offence to friendly Governments. That applies to all, and if that were carried out by all parties there would be no trouble.

Mr. Thorne

Have you not power, Mr. Speaker, to veto any question which you think is wrong?

Mr. Speaker

Do hon. Members wish me to exercise that power to the fullest extent?