HC Deb 21 June 1938 vol 337 cc1045-8

11.13 p.m.

Colonel Sir George Courthope

I beg to move, That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Powers) Measure, 1938, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent. So far. as I am aware there is no controversial matter in this Motion, and consequently I shall occupy the House for only a moment, though, of course, if more information is required, I shall be very happy to give it. The main purposes of this Bill are two. For the administrative convenience of the Ecclesiastical Commission several anomalies are removed. For instance, there is more than one authority entitled to settle tables of parochiar fees. That is found to be inconvenient, and under this Measure they will all be settled by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, with the consent of the Bishop of the diocese concerned. The most important object of this Measure is to enable the Commissioners to do what the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty are already doing for the convenience of incumbents, and that is to pay their stipends in equal quarterly instalments instead of at the time when the dividends, or whatever the payments may happen to be, are received. This is a convenience, but it requires legislation to enable us to do it. By the final Clause there is a removal of the limitation which was fixed in, I think, 1850 on the amount of remuneration which can be paid by the Commissioners to the two paid Church Estates Commissioners. Their responsibilities and labours have increased very largely, and it is proposed that the limitation shall be removed, but Treasury authority will be required for any payment which is made.

Resolved, That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners (Powers) Measure, 1938, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent.

11.15 p.m.

Sir Francis Fremantle

I beg to move, That, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act, 1919, this House do direct that the Parsonages Measure, 1938, be presented to His Majesty for Royal Assent. The House has before it the report of the Ecclesiastical Committee, showing that the object of this Measure is to consolidate and amend the law in regard to the sale, acquisition and erection of parsonages. All proper measures and provisions are made to respect existing rights.

Sir John Birchall

I beg to second the Motion.

Sir A. Southby

I have one or two questions to ask with regard to an alteration which is apparently to take place with regard to the consent to the sale of a parsonage. In the district in which I live this question has become rather acute. I understand that in the new Measure the consent of the parochial church council is dispensed with and the sale of a church parsonage is a matter only for the bishop and the incumbent. There is often very strong feeling in localities about the sale of old or historical parsonages. Can the hon. Gentleman who moved this Motion tell us why the consent and authority of the parochial church council, who are representative of the laity in the parish, is to be taken away and very old parsonages may be removed against the wishes of the local inhabitants, who may not agree with the views either of the bishop or of the incumbent?

11.17 p.m.

Sir F. Fremantle

I remember that there is a definite provision made, by which the parochial church council is to be notified; if the parochial church council does not exist, then the church wardens have to be notified, and their approval and their opinion—I think that is included in the Measure. I say it to-day, but I cannot tell you exactly where it is. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh!"] It is in the Bill.

Sir A. Southby

Can the hon. Gentleman say whereabouts in the Measure it is?

Sir F. Fremantle

It is in Clause 12 which provides that the powers conferred by this Measure should be exercised in relation to any benefice, and that where there is no parochial church council, as I have said, notice shall be given to the church wardens. [Interruption.] I think it is in Clause 9.

Mr. McGovern

Postponed till next Wednesday, Sir.

Mr. Stephen

On a point of Order. I suggest that the hon. Member postpone his Motion till to-morrow.

Sir F. Fremantle

It is in Clause 12 (1)

11.19 p.m.

Sir Joseph Nall

I beg to move, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

This matter is of vital importance to many parishes. I have no doubt there is an explanation of the point which has been raised, but it should be made clear on another occasion. It would obviously be improper to proceed with the Motion owing to the lack of information which is at present before the House.

Debate to be resumed To-morrow.