HC Deb 01 June 1938 vol 336 cc2014-20
25. Mr. Markham

asked the Prime Minister whether he will give time for a debate on the subject of conscription of man power in an emergency in the near future?

45. Mr. Sexton

asked the Prime Minister whether the plans of the Government, which include the conscription of man power in a state of war, also contemplate the conscription of the wealth of the country in the same circumstances?

The Prime Minister

Perhaps hon. Members would be good enough to await the statement which I propose to make at the end of questions.

Later—

The Prime Minister

It is not correct that any plans prepared by the Government include the conscription of man power in a state of war, but plans are in existence for compulsory military service in that event.

I may say that this is no new departure. The outlines of a scheme in the form of a Draft Bill providing for compulsory military service on the outbreak of war have been in an advanced state of preparation since the year 1922, and have been the subject of consideration by successive Governments since that date.

No such scheme has been worked out for the application of compulsion to industrial or other non-military service, although from time to time consideration has been given to the question how to make the most efficient use of the nation's man power in war time.

While it is not possible to foretell the full extent of the demands that may have to be made upon the personal services, material resources, or the wealth of individual members of the public in a major war, it is certain that any proposals of the kind would have to receive the assent of Parliament and to be based on the recommendation of the Government of the day.

Mr. Markham

Will the Prime Minister say what age limit is contemplated by any such Draft Measure; and further, whether consideration has also been given to the question of the National Service Register?

The Prime Minister

I have tried to answer fully the questions on the Paper. Perhaps my hon. Friend would put his question down.

Mr. Mander

Arising out of the answer to the questions on the Paper, may I ask whether, with a view to obtaining the largest possible measure of agreement beforehand, the Prime Minister will consider the advisability of publishing the terms of the contemplated Measure so that it can be studied by all persons in the country in order that they may form their opinions upon it?

The Prime Minister

I do not think that would be helpful. It has to be changed from time to time as conditions change, and only the Government of the day can, I think, take the responsibility.

Mr. A. Henderson

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, following the Defence Minister's statement the other night, the German official Press is alleging that this country is preparing to embark upon a totalitarian war; and will he publicly deny that allegation?

Mr. James Griffiths

since the statement of the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence alluded to a scheme by which every man would be allotted to his place according to age and since that can bear the interpretation that some form of industrial conscription is contemplated, will the right hon. Gentleman, in order to allay misunderstanding, publish fully the plans that the Government have ready?

The Prime Minister

I have now read very carefully the discussion in the course of which my right hon. Friend made his statement, and I think myself that if my right hon. Friend had had longer notice in which to prepare his words, he probably would have expressed himself somewhat differently from the way in which he did. What my right hon. Friend —and I have had the advantage of talking it over with him—meant to say was that the fact that a man had enlisted or recruited himself or had been trained as a member of, let us say, the auxiliary fire brigade, or extra police, or as an air raid warden, or whatever it might be—the fact that he had received training after voluntary enlistment for those services must not be taken as being a permanent protection for him against compulsory military service, if the Government of the day, in the course of a war, should find it necessary to introduce such service and should wish to make its dispositions so as to make military service applicable to all persons of, let us say, certain ages. At the same time, I would like to say that I hope that does not mean that people will think it is no use to enlist for these services. It is obvious that if war came suddenly in the sort of way in which people seem to contemplate its coming to-day, without any previous notice or declaration, the best way in which any particular person could serve would probably be in the way in which he had trained himself to serve, but one cannot lay it down that because a man is on the outbreak of war best suited to follow a particular occupation, he will therefore be necessarily required to follow that occupation all through it.

Mr. Benn

Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that his dissertation does not at all correspond with what the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence said?

The Prime Minister

I have already said that I thought perhaps my right hon. Friend might have expressed himself a little differently if he had had more time for preparation on this rather difficult question, but my right hon. Friend is perfectly clear in his own mind as to what he meant.

Mr. Arthur Greenwood

I think it is perfectly clear that the right hon. Gentleman expressed the point which the Prime Minister has just put, but might I put it to him that, with regard to that point, on the general issue he made statements which were perfectly definite and which could only be interpreted as being conscription? I will put this further point, that that evening, shortly before his speech in the House, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence had been appealing for the very volunteers whom a little later in the House he let down; and whether it is not a little dishonest on the part of the Government for its Ministers to make a statement on the same evening on quite contradictory lines and only because of a purely accidental occasion?

The Prime Minister

I am sure the right hon. Gentleman does not wish to suggest that there was any dishonesty on the part of my right hon. Friend or any other Member of the Government. If he complains that my right hon. Friend used language which was misleading, unintentionally misleading, that is another matter altogether, but everybody who knows my right hon. Friend knows that he would not deliberately mislead anyone.

Mr. Greenwood

My point to the Prime Minister was this: I was asking whether it was not misleading to withhold from the people of this country, in a broadcast discussion, facts which the right hon. Gentleman had most unwillingly to disclose on the very same evening within an hour and a half of that statement? In view of the discrepancy, I am afraid I must give notice that we shall have to raise this matter at the earliest possible opportunity.

The Prime Minister

My right hon. Friend reminds me that his broadcast was about peace time. In any case nobody could surely have supposed that he would be permanently exempt from compulsory military service if compulsory military service were introduced by a Government.

Mr. Maxton

Arising out of the original answer of the Prime Minister, did I understand him to say that since 1922 there has been a Bill in draft, in detail, for compulsory military service in this country, and that it has been the view of successive Governments that such a Bill would be immediately introduced if this nation found itself in a major war? Did I understand that that Bill has been drafted, with details of age and the rest, and, if so, why cannot the nation have the details of that Bill now?

The Prime Minister

No, I did not say the details. I said an outline. I said that an outline of a scheme in the form of a draft Bill had been in existence since 1922, and I said that it had been under the consideration of successive Governments. I did not say what view successive Governments had taken. But I do say again that it has been changed by successive Governments from time to time.

Colonel Sandeman Allen

Will my right hon. Friend tell the manhood of this country that the most helpful thing for the country would be that those under 35 should join the Forces, and that those over that age should join the voluntary organisations?

Mr. Ede

Are we to understand from the Prime Minister's answer that the interruption made by the right hon. Gentleman The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, reported in column 1780 of the OFFICIAL REPORT, that the essential feature of the arrangements for war was that the competent authorities should allocate to every man his service and in column 1783, in his interruption of the speech of my hon. Friend the Member for South Nottingham (Mr. Markham) that our plans envisage the setting up of a competent authority which will have power to allocate to everybody his proper position in time of war according to his age and capacity that those statements are now withdrawn and stated not to have the authority of the Government behind them?

The Prime Minister

I have already explained that my right hon. Friend distinguished, or intended to distinguish, between military service and other services and intended to convey that there would be a competent authority who would be ready to say whether a person should, if compulsory military service were introduced, be exempted from that service by reason of the superior importance of the task upon which he was engaged.

Mr. Sandys

Does not the interchange of questions and answers further emphasise the immense advantages which would result from the introduction of a system of national registration?

The Prime Minister

If it does, I do not see what that has to do with it.

Mr. Sandys

Did not my right hon. Friend suggest that it might very likely happen that people would be trained for one job and would have to do another in case of war? Surely that is a terrible waste of effort?

The Prime Minister

Anyhow, if they were registered, I do not see how you could prevent that possibility.

Mr. McEntee

In view of the right hon. Gentleman's statement, does he not think it would be wise to issue a statement to local authorities telling them just what the position is or would be in regard to war service, and not waste the time of young men in training for services when they might never do anything of the kind?

The Prime Minister

I do not think there will be any waste of the time of young men if they engage in the various services for which recruitment has been called.

Mr. Buchanan

Seeing that the Government are at least committed, in the event of war, to compulsory military service and have a Bill drafted for that purpose, will the Prime Minister, in view of the fact that human beings are being taken to give their life for war purposes, not say here and now what the outline of their plan is, in view of the fact that they are taking human life, to take other forms of wealth for that purpose as well?

The Prime Minister

It is not the case that the Government are committed to anything. It would be a question for the Government of the day in the event war to decide whether it was their duty to put before Parliament proposals for compulsory service. That is only for the event, if war should break out. At the present time neither this House nor the Government are committed to compulsory military service.

Mr. Mander

If the Government decide that it is necessary on the outbreak of war to introduce a Measure for compulsory military service, would that be accompanied by a Measure for the conscription of wealth as well?

The Prime Minister

It is hard to say what might be the action taken by whatever Government was in office at the time war broke out.

Mr. Pritt

Would the Prime Minister give very careful consideration to the words used by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, and compare them with what he has told the House just now that they really mean; and would he arrange for lessons in English for the Cabinet?

The Prime Minister

I hope the hon. and learned Member will give careful consideration to my words.

Mr. Gallacher

rose—

Hon. Members

Order.

Mr. Gallacher

I just want to tell the Prime Minister that the workers will never accept it.