§ 18. Mr. Lipsonasked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the desirability of the war in Spain being brought to a speedy conclusion, he will endeavour to obtain from the leaders of the Spanish Government and of the nationalist forces an assurance that it is not their intention to allow any executions of their opponents or other reprisals in the event of a cessation of hostilities being agreed upon; and whether, upon a peace settlement being made, the British Government will consider help being granted to Spain, by means of credits and in other ways, to enable her to recover from the effects of the war?
§ Mr. ButlerAs regards the first part of the Question, His Majesty's Government have frequently urged the contending Spanish parties to abstain from reprisals, and, as I explained in the House last Tuesday, they are ready to take advantage of any opportunity which may occur for mediation. I fear that the matter raised in the second part of the Question is at present too hypothetical for me to make a statement upon it.
§ Mr. LipsonMay I ask whether the representations that have been made lead my hon. Friend to believe that the answer to the first part of my Question is likely to be favourable?
§ Mr. ButlerI sincerely hope so. I am afraid I cannot go further than that.
Mr. Edmund HarveyIs not the fear of definite reprisals on the cessation of 3485 hostilities on both sides one of the great reasons for the prolongation of the war; and would not the Government consider making joint representations to both sides, and, if possible, securing the good offices of the Vatican in this matter?
§ Mr. ButlerI am sure that His Majesty's Government would not put anything out of mind in regard to this very serious aspect of the case. As to the question of making representations, I have already dealt with that in my original reply.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerArising out of the last part of the Question, will the Minister give an assurance that the Government will in no circumstances, and at no time, make loans to those who have committed repeated acts of piracy against British ships?
§ 19. Mr. Cocksasked the Prime Minister whether he can give the House any information regarding the bombing and sinking of the steamship "Dellwyn," in the harbour of Gandia, on 27th July; and whether he proposes to take any action?
§ 21. Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether he can make a statement concerning the attack by aircraft on the British steamship "Dellwyn," in the Spanish port of Gandia, showing to what company this ship belonged; what cargo it carried; what was the nature of the attack; and what was the country of origin of the attacking aircraft?
24. Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister, with regard to the sinking of the British ship "Dellwyn" in the British-owned port of Gandia, whether the nationality of the aviator and of the aeroplane which destroyed the ship are known; and whether the renewal of attacks on British ships will affect the relations of His Majesty's Government with the Burgos authorities?
§ Mr. ButlerThe British steamship "Dellwyn," belonging to the Dellwyn Steamship Company of Cardiff, and carrying a cargo of coal, was attacked at Gandia on 26th July by a single low-flying aircraft and sank as a result of the damage sustained. Reports hitherto received suggest that the attack on this vessel was deliberate. If, on further investigation, this view was confirmed, His 3486 Majesty's Government would at once request the Commission, which is being formed to investigate such cases, to examine without delay the circumstances of this attack.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerIs it not a fact that this ship was attacked on four separate occasions before she was sunk; that the aircraft came very low over her and machine-gunned her repeatedly, and, in view of those facts, will the Government not immediately withdraw Sir Robert Hodgson definitely from Burgos?
§ Mr. ButlerNo, Sir. I accept as substantially correct the statements which the hon. Gentleman has made, but I think it is better to follow the course which I have suggested in my original reply, that if, on further investigation, the view that these attacks are deliberate is confirmed, we should then request the Commission which has been formed for the purpose to examine without delay the circumstances of this particular case.
§ Mr. A. HendersonCan the hon. Gentleman say whether this Commission is to receive oral evidence or evidence in writing, and will evidence be received from members of the crews of any of the ships which have been attacked?
§ Mr. ButlerIt is precisely that sort of problem which our agent at Burgos will work out with the Burgos authorities.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerHas it not been proved that measures of this kind are not sufficient either to stop these attacks or even to secure compensation?
§ Mr. ButlerThat is precisely why this new measure has been proposed, and I think we should give it every chance of operating.
§ Lieut.-Commander FletcherWill witnesses from the area which is under Spanish Government control be allowed to give evidence?
§ Mr. CocksCan the hon. Gentleman say whether the Government know the type of the aeroplane and the country of origin?
§ Mr. ButlerThat is one of the points upon which we are awaiting further information.
§ 20. Mr. Cocksasked the Prime Minister whether he is aware that substantial reinforcements in men and materials have been supplied to General Franco from Italy in recent weeks; and whether he will give the House the information he possesses on the subject?
§ Mr. ButlerWhile I cannot subscribe to the accuracy of the hon. Member's statement, I shall, of course, be prepared to cause enquiries to be made into any reliable reports on this subject which the hon. Member will send me.
§ Mr. CocksHas not the hon. Gentleman any information at all as to the reinforcements which are being sent from Italy to General Franco in recent weeks?
§ Mr. ButlerI have always said that we have sources of information, but I could not go as far as the hon. Gentleman does in the Question which he has put on the Paper.
§ 22. Mr. Noel-Bakerasked the Prime Minister whether he can assure the House that His Majesty's Government's recent proposals to General Franco do not by implication recognise the legitimacy of indiscriminate air attacks on ports remote from the battle front or legitimacy of attempts to establish a blockade by means of aircraft?
§ Mr. ButlerThe proposals in question do not imply any such recognition.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerAre we to understand that the Government definitely repudiate the legitimacy of indiscriminate attacks on ports, and that they still adhere to their view that it is not legitimate in international law to attempt to establish a blockade by air?
§ Mr. ButlerYes, Sir; the Government stand by the view expressed by the Prime Minister on 13th July, which was:
His Majesty's Government have made it plain that they cannot accept as legitimate the bombing and sinking by aircraft of merchant ships."—[OFFIcrAr REPORT, 13th July, 1938. Col. 1334, Vol. 338.]
§ Mr. Noel-BakerHas that been made plain again in the recent note to General Franco?
§ Mr. ButlerI think General Franco is personally well aware of our view on this matter.
Miss RathboneAre we to regard the Prime Minister's statement of some weeks ago—that if these deliberate attacks continued they must affect friendly relations between this country and the Burgos authorities—as withdrawn, since it has never been in any way implemented, in spite of recent occurrences?
§ 23. Lieut.-Commander Fletcherasked the Prime Minister whether he can now make a statement as to the replies received from the Spanish Government and the Burgos authorities as to the British plan for removal of foreign combatants from Spain?
§ Mr. ButlerThe reply of the Spanish Government has now been published. It contains a number of observations on detail, but His Majesty's Government for their part regard this prompt reply as being an acceptance of the Non-Intervention Committee's plan as a whole. I understand that the Burgos authorities are studying the plan urgently with a view to an early reply.
§ Lieut.-Commander FletcherIs it proposed to ask the Burgos authorities to expedite their reply so that it will be received shortly?
§ Mr. ButlerWe hope to receive the reply and forward it to the Non-Intervention Commitee. I will certainly consider the hon. and gallant Gentleman's suggestion.
25. Miss Rathboneasked the Prime Minister how many attacks by the insurgents on the British-owned port of Gandia has taken place; and whether His Majesty's Government has considered taking any special steps for its protection?
§ Mr. ButlerThere have been seven attacks on the port of Gandia by General Franco's forces. As regards the second part of the question, I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to the hon. Lady on 27th June.
Miss RathboneSeeing that this is a fresh attack and a peculiarly deliberate one, as shown by the hon. Gentleman's own statement, will it not have a serious effect on the prestige of the British Government if warnings repeatedly given by the Foreign Secretary and the Prime Minister are not in any way implemented?
§ Mr. ButlerThe hon. Lady asked me what action we should take, and I said in my previous reply that although this port is leased by a British company, it remains part of the territory of Spain, and that if we were to go on to the territory of Spain and defend it, we should be taking part in the war, which we are not prepared to do.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerAre there not many precedents in history, including precedents in the civil war in Spain, for action being taken within territorial waters to protect British shipping from attack, and will the hon. Gentleman look up the precedent of 1873 on this matter?
§ Mr. HannahAre those precedents encouraging?
§ 44. Mr. Cocksasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he is aware that the sinking of the steamship "Dellwyn" at Gandia, on 27th July, was witnessed by His Majesty's ship "Hero"; and whether the latter vessel took any action against the hostile aeroplane?
§ The Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Colonel Llewellin)The answer to the first part of the question is yes, Sir; and to the second part no, Sir.
§ Mr. CocksHave the British naval authorities been given instructions to allow British ships to be hit and sunk under the very guns of the British Navy, and that on no occasion shall anybody fire upon the Italian friends of the Government?
§ Colonel LlewellinThe instructions given to the Royal Navy are in accordance with the policy of the Government, which is to give full protection to British ships outside territorial waters and not to give such protection inside territorial waters.
§ Mr. A. V. AlexanderHas the hon. and gallant Gentleman any knowledge of any previous case in British history where a British ship has been sunk in any waters under the eyes of the British Fleet and the British Fleet have not taken action? Is there a precedent for it? I do not know of any?
§ Colonel LlewellinI should certainly require notice of that question.
§ Mr. Marcus SamuelWas a British ship sunk under the eyes of the British Navy?
§ Mr. Attlee(by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has received any further information as to the circumstances in which the observing officer of the Non-Intervention Committee was killed during an attack on the British ship "Kellwyn"?
§ The Prime MinisterNo, Sir. Urgent steps are being taken with a view to obtaining confirmation of reports which have appeared in the Press on the subject.
§ Mr. AttleeIs any action taken on the Non-Intervention Committee when their officers are killed in this way? Is the matter taken up by the Non-Intervention Committee at all? Is any notice taken of it?
§ The Prime MinisterI think that in similar cases the matter has been taken up by the Non-Intervention Committee, with a view to making the only amends that can be made in the matter, and that is compensation.
§ Mr. AttleeIs no protest made by the members of the Non-Intervention Committee against the killing of their officers, who are specially appointed to accompany these ships to the places to which they go, in conformity with the arrangements made and under the orders of this Committee? Do the Committee just sit down under this state of affairs—the whole lot of them?
§ The Prime MinisterIt is not reasonable for the right hon. Gentleman to expect me to answer a question of that kind without notice. It is a question concerning the actions of the Non-Intervention Committee, and I cannot be expected to know everything they do. Of course, if I had notice I could find out.
§ Mr. AttleeHas this matter been brought to the attention of the Foreign Secretary and of the right hon. Gentleman, and may I ask whether any instructions have been given to our representatives on the Non-Intervention Committee to do anything in this matter?
§ The Prime MinisterI am not quite sure what the right hon. Gentleman means by "this matter." If he means the matter on which he is asking a question, of course that has been brought to the notice of the Foreign Secretary.
§ Mr. AttleeThis is not the first occasion on which observation officers of the Non-Intervention Committee have been killed. I am asking whether they can kill observation officers just as they can kill anybody else without any protest being made?
§ The Prime MinisterI really do not know what the right hon. Gentleman means by "they can kill observation officers." I have already said that I do not know what the circumstances are in which this observation officer was killed, and until we get the information, for which we have urgently asked, I do not think we had better make any assumptions.
§ Mr. Noel-BakerIs not this the third observation officer killed? Was not the first killed some months ago? If the Non-Intervention Committee are to continue to send officers, ought they not to take measures for their protection, or, if they cannot protect them, ought they not to cease to send them on these international duties?
§ The Prime MinisterIt is difficult to answer that question offhand, but, of course, I quite agree that if non-intervention observers are liable to be killed in the performance of their duties it may be difficult to expect them to perform those duties, and it may give rise to complications which will have to be considered and dealt with.
§ Sir P. HarrisIs it not the point that this is not a matter for this country alone but for all the countries which are represented on the Non-Intervention Committee? Ought they not to take co-operative action to protest, rather than that it should be left to ourselves? Ought not that to be impressed upon the Committee?
§ The Prime MinisterI agree with the hon. Baronet that it is a matter for all those concerned in their joint capacity.
§ Mr. GrenfellWhatever the nationality of the observation officer, is it not the responsibility of all the 27 signatory States to protest or to give warning that they expect their representatives, of whatever nationality, to be respected on the high seas?
§ The Prime MinisterThe hon. Member could not have understood me. That is precisely what I was saying. It is not the business merely of the country to 3492 which the observation officer who happens to be killed belongs, but the duty of all the countries which are concerned in this joint arrangement to take whatever steps may be necessary.
§ Mr. AttleeMy question was whether any instructions had been given to our representatives to raise this matter on the Non-Intervention Committee, so that all the States could bring pressure to bear upon the perpetrator. I am asking whether any instructions have been given to our representatives on the Non-Intervention Committee?
§ The Prime MinisterThe right hon. Gentleman must not talk as though this were a deliberate attempt to kill observation officers. The observation officer has been killed because his duties brought him in close proximity to the objective, whatever the objective was, which was being aimed at. I understand that the matter has been discussed on the Non-Intervention Committee, and that they have had under consideration suggestions for making it safer for these observation officers to perform their duties in the future, and I cannot go further than that.