HC Deb 26 July 1938 vol 338 cc3061-8

Question again proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Lieut.-Colonel Kerr.]

11.2 p.m.

Mr. Ede

I am certain that the Government gravely misunderstand the state of public feeling with regard to Gibraltar. It is recognised rightly as an essential part of the life-line of the Empire, and I have no belief at all in the calm suggestions held out to us this evening that this menace to the existence of the Empire and of the trade routes on which our food supplies depend can be treated in that light way. I believe that at the end of this incident in Spain, whether it is regarded as a civil war or as an invasion of Spain, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent (Mr. E. Smith) prefers to call it, we shall find those guns still mounted there, unless the British Government take steps now to make it plain that no settlement in Spain can be regarded as complete that does not involve the removal of those weapons from their present menacing position. Nothing short of that will be regarded by the country as a surrender to those bullies to whom the Government have consistently been surrendering during the past six or seven years. It was a National Liberal Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs who commenced the surrender, in respect of Manchukuo; the speech of the right hon. Gentleman shows that he is in full sympathy with the policy that was then started, and which has had such devastating results upon the peace of the world; and which will continue to have them while right hon. Gentlemen sit there, usurping the reins of government.

11.4 p.m.

Commander Sir Archibald Southby

Some of the observations of hon. Members opposite require an answer. With what has been said about Gibraltar by the hon. Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) I cordially agree, but it is sometimes forgotten that Gibraltar has been in the hands of the British for a longer time than it was in the hands of the Spaniards. It is also forgotten that the distinguished Admiral who captured Gibraltar was court-martialled and dismissed the Service as soon as he returned to England. I have some knowledge of Gibraltar and the Straits of Gibraltar, and the conditions obtaining there, and I appreciate the feelings of many people in this country, not only in this House, that there may be a menace to Gibraltar by the mounting of heavy artillery on either side of the Straits. But I think one should try to view the matter in proportion. Guns which are mounted in positions which can be determined and are well known are not the real menace to Gibraltar. A gun which is mounted at Ceuta or Tarifa Point is not mounted there, I venture to suggest to the House, without any feeling of partiality for either of the sides in Spain, in any way as a menace to Gibraltar. Obviously anyone prosecuting military operations in Spain—and again I assure the House that I desire to take no sides—is bound to secure, so far as he can, the transport of troops from Morocco to Spain, and I believe that these guns were mounted in order to command the Straits for the passage of troops.

It may be said that the mounting of these guns, therefore, constitutes a menace to Gibraltar, and that to a certain extent is true, but I think, and I am sure the hon. and gallant Member for Nuneaton (Lieut.-Commander Fletcher) will agree with me, that anyone who has any knowledge of artillery will realise that the menace to the guns at Tarifa from guns on Gibraltar, accurately mounted, accurately sighted and with great potential powers of destruction, is as great as, if not greater than, the menace to Gibraltar from guns mounted at Tarifa or elsewhere along the Straits. I think the House should realise that the menace to Gibraltar is not constituted by guns in fixed emplacements in Tarifa or anywhere else. If you are afraid for Gibraltar, you should look 20 miles beyond the hills to a battery of mobile howitzers, and if this House is concerned, as, indeed it should be concerned, for the safety of Gibraltar, it should be looking to the possibility of either side in Spain, or any foreigner in Spain, putting a large battery of big mobile howitzers in such a position that you did not know where they were. They would indeed constitute a menace. Therefore, I think it is wise that the House should realise that there is not a real menace to Gibraltar from guns whose position is known. Indeed, guns which are not howitzers and which are so mounted that they command the Straits, as anyone who knows the vicinity of Gibraltar and Tarifa will agree, could not be so trained as to constitute a menace to Gibraltar.

Reference has been made to the Treaty of Utrecht, and the hon. Lady the Member for the English Universities (Miss Rathbone) was quite correct in saying that under the Treaty of Utrecht the Spanish Government have certain responsibilities and liabilities to this country. It has been generally assumed in the Debate to-night that the Government of this country are so asleep that they have forgotten all about the Treaty of Utrecht, but perhaps the House will bear with me if I give an example which shows that this country is not always so asleep as some people imagine. I happened to be in Southern Spain not long after the War, when a large whaling station was to be put up opposite to Gibraltar, not far from Algeciras. In order to build this whaling station it was necessary to obtain the consent of a large number of interests and individuals in Spain, and ultimately the station was erected; but when it came to putting down the large concrete flenching beds upon which the whales were to be hauled in order that they might be cut up, the Government of this country, I understand, at once raised an objection with the Spanish Government under the Treaty of Utrecht, and objected to the building of these concrete emplacements on the ground that they were within gunshot of Gibraltar and might be used for artillery purposes. It is perfectly true, as my right hon. Friend has said, that conditions now, when a civil war is raging in Spain, are obviously such that we must view the matter in some sort of proportion.

There are in progress between the two sides in Spain military operations which have obviously necessitated precautions being taken by one side or the other to ensure the safety of their troops; but to say that this country is blind to its responsibilities, or negligent of its rights under the old Treaty of Utrecht, is to say something which cannot possibly be borne out by the facts. Nobody deplores more than I do what is going on in Spain, or is more anxious that Gibraltar should remain an inviolate part of the British Empire, but there is, in fact no menace from those guns which are in position there, and the Government are fully alive to their rights under the Treaty of Utrecht. Therefore hon. Members opposite and the country may rest quietly in their beds.

11.12 p.m.

Mr. Cerro Jones

The hon. and gallant Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) has given us a very soothing speech, but I cannot say he followed the Nelsonian tradition. He put his telescope to the blind eye with a very different idea from that which Nelson had. Neither was I very much convinced by his dissertation on the facts of the position. Speaking also with some experience on these matters, I must say that I was quite unimpressed. Not only to the Rock of Gibraltar are these guns a direct menace, but they are a direct menace to our ships under the shelter of the Rock and also to the shipping which passes through the Straits. We know this is an extremely embarrassing moment, and an extremely embarrassing situation to the Government, but I am not sure that if we had a little more candour we should not get better results with General Franco and with those who are inspiring him.

There has been incontrovertible evidence in the Press of this country—at any rate, it has not been denied—that these guns have been mounted as part of a deliberate policy of encirclement, and the boastings which come from the foreign Press as to the menace these guns are to Gibraltar and British interests conflict somewhat strangely with the arguments of the hon. and gallant Member for Epsom. He told us a little about the history of Gibraltar. I believe that the last occasion on which the British flag was hauled down on Gibraltar was when Queen Catherine sat on a height overlooking the rock and informed her soldiers that she would not descend until the British flag was hauled down. The Spanish officers, having great confidence in the chivalry of the British officers, sent a message to them, and the British commander said, "We will haul down the flag for an hour, and you must get your queen down." I am not suggesting that the British Government should adopt the same attitude.

We are entitled to some more explicit assurances than we have received. For example, has any representation been made to the Spanish insurgent commander? If so, has he replied that the matter is outside his control? That is the first question on which the British Government ought to satisfy itself, if only to get at the facts of the situation. If the Spanish commander has so informed the British Government, the House of Commons ought to be informed of the terms of that reply. Nothing is to be gained by this policy of fearing to face up to the truth. In spite of the assurances of the Secretary of State for War that he desired to be frank, and that there was no need for secrecy, the House ought not to be satisfied to leave this matter until it has received direct assurances on this point.

I want to say a few words on the tactical side mentioned by the hon. and gallant Member. These guns are not all on fixed emplacements. Some are of a calibre which can be moved in a very short time, and with the increasing power of modern high explosive shells they constitute a menace to the shipping of Gibraltar out of all proportion to that we had to face 20 years ago. I hope that the House will not be soothed by what the hon. and gallant Member said.

Sir A. Southby

Is the hon. Member suggesting that the guns to which he is referring are howitzers?

Mr. Garro Jones

Yes, there are both howitzers and guns mounted.

Sir A. Southby

Does the hon. Member not know that howitzers are not so great a menace to ships at sea as other guns?

Mr. Garro Jones

I know that howitzers are not so great a menace firing at ships, but fired at ships en masse they are a very serious danger, and the hon. and gallant Member knows that as well as I do. If this thing has to be fought out on the strategical and tactical danger to Gibraltar, it cannot be denied that they would greatly embarrass a commander at Gibraltar, and greatly add to the trials which confront our ships and shipping in that area. I notice that the right hon. Gentleman has appointed Major-General Ironside to command Gibraltar, and there is considerable discussion in military circles on whether it is a promotion or otherwise. I suggest that it would solve two problems at once if the right hon. Gentleman were to request Major-General Ironside to take up his duties there at once.

11.17 p.m.

Mr. Noel-Baker

The Secretary of State for War has made some very serious admissions, which must be considered against the very serious background of political facts. He tried to excuse the present situation by saying that it is a civil war. There is a civil war in one sense, but everybody, in all quarters of the House, has admitted that there has been for long a foreign invasion. It is months since the Prime Minister wrote a letter to the Noble Lady the Member for Perth and Kinross (Duchess of Atholl) that it was well known that there had been Italian troops in Spain since almost the beginning of the war. The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the other day as good as admitted, by not denying, that German reinforcements and armaments were continually arriving in Spain. We know that that is part of the preparation for a general conflict. We know it on the very best authority, because Signor Mussolini has told us so four times in the last six months. He told us on the 31st March in a speech in an Italian paper, he told us on the 14th May at Genoa, he told us in the preface to a book the other day, and in another even more recent pronouncement, that his armies, which he claims to be the most powerful in the world, are ready for a conflict between Fascist Powers and those he called demi-plutocracies. The whole of their armament programme is a preparation for war in which they expect the whole of Europe to be involved.

With that background, what admissions has the Secretary of State made to-night? He said there are guns on both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar, that they are not Spanish guns, that the batteries on the north side could shell Gibraltar, and that the batteries on the southern side could shell the Straits. I am certain that the right hon. Gentleman cannot seriously believe that these batteries have been mounted in order to be worked against the forces of the Spanish Government. Nobody can believe that for a moment. He prejudiced the whole problem with the very optimism to which my hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (Mr. Ede) paid tribute by saying, "We do not worry, because we are going to do counter-battery work; we have prepared our counter-batteries."

The hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Epsom (Sir A. Southby) told us that once you knew the fixed gun and knew the emplacement, it was not so much a menace after all. If that is true, why did you worry about concrete emplacements? Why did our Government make the protest and stop the unhappy Spaniards from doing that?

Sir A. Southby

They did not stop them from carrying out legitimate whaling operations. They stopped them before the building of the concrete beds actually took place.

Mr. Noel-Baker

At any rate, they made a protest because they were afraid these might be gun emplacements.

Sir A. Southby

The hon. Member must not assume that. The protest was made because they did not approach our Government under the Treaty of Utrecht before the concrete beds were put down. When it was explained that they were for whaling operations, the work went forward, because it was not of a military character.

Mr. Noel-Baker

Unless our Government believed that they might be used for gun emplacements, what reason could they have for making representations? It is simply the modern application of the theory of the Treaty of Utrecht, and a proper application, but the astonishing thing is that the Secretary of State has allowed the same thing to be done in this case, knowing that the emplacements are for guns and not for whaling operations, and no protest has been made. It is all very well to say that you can knock out a gun when you know where it is, but how long does it take to knock out a gun on a reinforced gun emplacement? Long before the guns could be knocked out the British Fleet would be far from Malta, and the dockyard there would be destroyed, and our naval base would have lost its purpose and would have ceased to exist.

The hon. and gallant Member said that the menace of the mobile gun is even greater. Yet we know there are mobile guns there, and that there are Germans and Italians who have been preparing and putting these guns into position. Faced with that situation, the Government have not yet been able to make a decision as to whether or not this is a violation of the Treaty of Utrecht. They have taken no action whatever. They have made no inquiries, they have made no representations to General Franco or to Italy and Germany, and they have allowed us to be faced with a position in which the naval base at Gibraltar may be rendered entirely valueless and the Straits of Gibraltar may me closed to our traffic.

The Secretary of State said that there was no need for secrecy in this matter, but he said that he could not tell us anything because he was afraid he would embarrass the sources of his information. We have heard that story much too often. What is the good of having information if you cannot use it. Let us learn. Nobody can tell me that the Secret Service will cease to exist and will not be able to carry on its work if the Secretary of State reveals a few facts which it has been able to assemble. Of course it will be able to carry on its work. Let him tell us what these guns are, where they are placed, where they came from, who put them there, and who are the engineers who did the job. Then let him tell us on Friday, when I hope the matter will be raised again, that the Government have taken the proper political action and drawn the attention of General Franco and the Italian and German Governments to the matter, with an urgent demand that the menace to Gibraltar should cease.

Mr. A. Henderson

In view of the inability of the Secretary of State to deal with the political issues raised, I beg to give notice that I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment on Friday.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-four Minutes after Eleven o'Clock.