SCOTTISH OFFICE.

HC Deb 21 July 1938 vol 338 cc2523-53

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £148,321, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for the salaries and expenses of the Offices of His Majesty's Secretary of State for Scotland in London and Edinburgh; expenses in respect of private legislation procedure in Scotland; a subsidy for transport services to the Western Highlands and Islands; a grant in lieu of Land Tax; contributions towards the expenses of Probation, and of Remand Homes; and grants and expenses in connection with physical training and recreation."—[NOTE.—£75,000 has been voted on account.]

8.6 p.m.

Mr. Colville

I am glad that hon. Members have given me an opportunity of saying something of the work of the Scottish Office. The method of doing so, that is, to move a reduction by £100 of the Vote which carries my salary, is the usual way we have in this House. The Office of the Secretary of State for Scotland carries many responsibilities, as hon. and right hon. Members for Scottish constituencies know well. The last two days have given evidence of how we have to turn our minds from one subject to another. The Scottish Office itself covers a multiplicity of subjects and it is difficult to know which to select in introducing the Estimate, because many activities of the Scottish Office come appropriately under other Votes and could be better discussed under those Votes. I intend to make a short introduce- tory speech with regard to a few points which I wish to bring to the notice of the Committee, and then hon. Members will be able to raise those matters in which they are interested.

I will start with the newest service on the Vote, that of physical training and recreation. I intimated to my hon. Friend the Member for South Edinburgh (Sir S. Chapman) that I would say something on the subject on this Vote. Physical training and recreation accounts for nearly one half of the total Vote for the Scottish Office — £106,000 out of £223,000, in round figures. The fitness campaign in Scotland is now well under way. I know that some hon. Members think that it has been slow in starting, but I would ask them to keep in mind that it is a very big job that the National Council is tackling. It is not simply a case of ordering so many gymnasia, so many playing fields, swimming baths, and so on, up to the limits of the funds available. That would have been easy. The council's job is to give leadership in voluntary and democratic methods for promoting physical fitness. Its organisation, therefore, has to be democratic and its methods democratic, and that in the long run will give staying power and lasting stability to the measures achieved. All the elaborate apparatus for physical fitness in the world will count for nothing if the people of the country have not the will to be interested in it. To build up an organisation suited to the different needs and the different outlook of different localities, and to ensure that the organisation will carry the continuing good will of the people of Scotland, was the essential first task of the National Fitness Council.

Let me sum up in a few words what has been done. Five Regional Committees, representative of a wide range of interests in each region, have been appointed. Those committees are being helped by local sub-committees or by local fitness associations. The Regional Committees have undertaken surveys of their areas. They have organised and held local demonstrations and they have been considering applications for grants. On 4th July, 242 applications from local bodies for grants had been received by the Regional Committees. Of those applications 59 were from local authorities arid 183 from voluntary organisations. Fifteen of the applications were for swimming baths, 55 for community centres, halls, gymnasia and clubs, 37 for playing fields and the remainder for such facilities as youth hostels, camps, and equipment for gymnastic and physical training exercises generally.

By 4th July also the Regional Committees had passed on to the Grants Committee 101 of these applications. The Grants Committee, in turn, have decided 68 applications, and the remaining 33 are now in an advanced stage of consideration. In addition to the grants for local purposes, totalling just under £12,000, grants of £8,708 have been made to national organisations for the employment of fully qualified organisers, for assisting their camping expenditure and for other purposes. A further sum of £12,000 has been set aside for grants in respect of playing fields during the present financial year; and grants amounting to £30,000 have been offered through the University Grants Committee to the four Scottish Universities for improvements of their physical training facilities.

The activities of the National Fitness Council itself, apart from setting up the local organisation, are also developing. The campaign cannot go far without trained leaders, and the Council have instituted training courses which are now in operation. One is the training college at Jordanhill, at which 143 trainees are attending. Another centre, comprising 165 persons, is being run by a voluntary organisation at Guisachan, Inverness-shire. Others are in operation in other centres. A scheme has also been announced under which it is hoped to make 75 per cent. grants available for educational authorities for the appointment of full-time instructor-leaders. The propaganda work of the Council also is developing well. This is being carried out by demonstrations and by advertising in order to stimulate public interest in the idea of fitness—to stimulate it to the point of doing something about it. I might here make reference to the Fitness Pavilion, for which the Council is responsible, at the Empire Exhibition. That pavilion is drawing large crowds and the fitness demonstrations given there are amongst the most popular features of the Exhibition. I may also say that six specially prepared films are on show in the Exhibition cinema, and one of them is being shown all over the country.

Summing up, I think we can say, as I said at the beginning, that the National Fitness Campaign is now well under way in Scotland. It is a campaign, I believe, which will mean a great deal to us. Yesterday I spoke of the health services of Scotland under the control of the Department of Health. These services cannot give a full return for the expenditure on them unless our people as a whole live healthily. As we progress—as we are progressing—in removing the barriers to healthy living, more and more depends upon the individual. Yesterday we discussed the housing problem. When I speak of this fitness campaign hon. Members must not think that I fail to realise that behind a great deal of our trouble are the housing conditions, which we are doing our best to improve. But we cannot forget the efforts that are being made on a voluntary basis to help the people of our country to become fit. It is to stimulate a desire for healthy recreation that this campaign has been launched. It is receiving the active support of several hon. Members of this House. I may suggest that it deserves the support of all. I should like to pay a tribute to the voluntary effort, with which the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) is familiar, which is coming to the aid of this movement in a way that deserves credit.

There is one other item—or rather group of items—in the Vote, on which I should say a word. There are small increases in the Vote for juvenile welfare, probation and so on. It may appear to have comparatively little relationship to other Votes, yet they all fall under the Department for which I am responsible. I am anxious to develop the system of probation in Scotland. It has amply demonstrated its success; and in a circular issued last month, in which I urged an increase where possible of the number of full-time probation officers, I referred to the fact that approximately 84 per cent. of probationers in 1934, 85 per cent. in 1935, and 86 per cent. in 1936, responded satisfactorily. I hope that the Committee will note these figures, which I think justify my being anxious to see an extension of the system in Scotland. The probation system, of course, applies to adult as well as to juvenile offenders.

Juvenile delinquency presents many problems into which I do not propose to go at the moment, because I must give other hon. Members an opportunity to speak. A sum of £I,000 has been set aside for an inquiry into some of the factors connected with this problem in Scotland. The inquiry will be conducted at the same time as a similar inquiry of the Home Office in England. The lines of it are being settled now and the actual inquiry will begin shortly.

Mr. Westwood

Will the inquiry be conducted by the officials of the respective Departments, or by some special committee?

Mr. Colville

I am not able to say more about it. I have told hon. Members that a similar inquiry will be held by the Home Office in England.

Mr. Maclean

Will there be a separate committee for Scotland from that which is being set up for England?

Mr. Colville

I have not indicated on what lines the inquiry will be conducted because that question is just being considered, but I will certainly bear in mind the considerations which have been offered. I gather that it is the view of the hon. Member that the Scottish inquiry should be by separate committee, but I think he will agree with me that in a matter of this kind close contact will be valuable.

Mr. Westwood

It is important to have a, separate inquiry for Scotland as opposed to a joint inquiry with England, particularly in view of what happened in connection with the Fire Brigade Bill, in which there was legislation for Scotland without any consideration for Scottish problems.

Mr. Colville

I cannot say that I agree with the hon. Member about the Fire Brigades Bill, but I agree that the inquiry should specifically refer to Scotland. I have not yet announced the actual method of the inquiry, but I will certainly do so in the House. I am just as alive to the importance of this question and to the fact that there are special conditions in Scotland which require special attention and inquiry. I will announce the lines of the inquiry later.

Among the duties of the Scottish Office, which are exceptionally diverse, there is the group which makes the Office responsible for the machinery and the organisation of local government in Scotland. It is in this Office that are discussed the broad questions of area, grouping of functions, elections and so on. It is from this Office that are appointed the auditors of local government expenditure in Scotland, which expenditure, by the way, has reached the great total of £70,000,000. One broad issue over which a careful watch must be kept is the trend of the relationships between local and central government. Hon. Members know how, taken over a considerable period, opinion seems to have varied, at one time swinging towards central government and at another time towards local government. The cry at one time is for more central control in order to secure standards of administration; at another time the cry is against a central bureaucracy. The essential thing, and one of the most important functions of the Secretary of State, is to see that the pendulum never swings too far either way. Our system of local government is precious to us in Scotland. It is one of the pillars of our democracy. I therefore stress in all branches of administration the importance of co-operation with the local authorities. Both central and local government stand to gain from the closest personal contact. I think it can be claimed that such contact is steadily being strengthened in Scotland.

The opening in 1935 under Sir Godfrey Collins, of the Edinburgh Office of the Secretary of State has proved to be a distinct success from many points of view, but particularly from this one. For example, during the last 12 months there have been no fewer than 1,500 interviews between representatives of local authorities and members of the Edinburgh staff of the Scottish Office. I would like the Committee to know of that, because it has meant a considerable saving of time for the 'officials, who would otherwise have had to travel long distances. There has been a much more ready personal contact than obtained before that Office was in being. The same policy is being pursued in the other Edinburgh Departments. It has been mentioned before, but I should like to stress it again, that 95 per cent. of the staff of the Department under my control are located in Edinburgh. Perhaps I might mention as a matter of personal interest that during the short time since I assumed office I have held seven meetings at the Edinburgh Office, all of which might have been held in London before the Edinburgh Office was opened. The availability of such an office has been of great assistance to the local authorities in Scotland.

The completion and occupation of the new Government buildings in Edinburgh will, I believe, still further facilitate cooperation between the local authorities and the central departments. It is hoped that the new building will be ready for occupation in the autumn of 1939. As hon. Members know, the Government have had under consideration the valuable report upon Scottish Administration presented by the committee over which my right hon. Friend the Member for Pollok (Sir J. Gilmour) presided. I am sure that the Committee will join with me in saying how indebted we are to the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues on the committee for that report. As the matters concerned will involve legislation it would not upon this occasion be proper to say more, but, as promised, I intend to make a statement on the subject, I hope next week.

Mr. Kirkwood

On which day?

Mr. Colville

I cannot be quite certain, but I think it will be Wednesday or Thursday.

Mr. Henderson Stewart

As the statement which the right hon. Gentleman will make will be very important, shall we have a chance of discussing it before we rise?

Mr. Colville

Probably the statement will be made in answer to a Parliamentary question, but I cannot give the exact day. I expect that it will be Wednesday or Thursday.

Mr. Maclean

Subsequently to that statement will there be an opportunity for us to debate the report, or any proposals based upon by the Secretary of State?

Mr. Colville

The hon. Member knows that I cannot say what Parliamentary time is available. I can only assure him that I will make a statement as soon as I am in a position to do so next week.

Mr. Mathers

Before the right hon. Gentleman leaves this point will he say whether it is intended, or whether we can have a guarantee, that when the offices are occupied they will contain all the staffs under the Secretary of State for Scotland and that they will all be accommodated after September next when the offices are brought into use?

Mr. Colville

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman had better await my statement. I have fully in mind the points which he has raised, but I can say no more than that it is our intention that the building should be fully occupied and in full use next year. Obviously I cannot anticipate what I am going to say on the subject of the reorganisation of the Department. Another matter to which I should like to make a brief reference is the important work of the consolidation of Scottish local government law. The committee engaged on this big task are making excellent progress, and are working for the completion of their first report before the end of this year.

As I said at the beginning, it is not easy to select subjects for the opening of a debate on the duties of the Secretary of State for Scotland, which are so wide, but there were two or three subjects that I wished to mention, and I have done so. I hope now that hon. Members who have put down the Amendment will take the opportunity of raising matters in which they are interested, and at the end my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State will reply.

8.26 p.m.

Mr. Neil Maclean

I beg to move, to reduce the Vote by £100.

I want first to take up the last item mentioned by the Secretary of State, namely, the Report of the Committee on Scottish Administration—known familiarly to us as the Gilmour Report—which deals with the manner in which the Department should be managed. I want to assure the Secretary of State that, while we welcome the subject-matter of the report, and are favourable to some of its proposals, we are not entirely satisfied with the proposals relating to the allocation of Government in Scotland. That proposed allocation is not satisfactory to Scottish Members on these benches, and I am certain that, if the ultimate legislation is carried into effect within the narrow limits and along the narrow lines of the Gilmour Report, it will not be satisfactory to the great majority of the people of Scotland. They wish for a broader governmental basis in Scotland than is indicated in the report. That is my personal view also, and I am certain that it is shared by other Members on these benches. I will not discuss that matter further, because, until we hear the statement of the right hon. Gentleman next week, and know whether we are likely to have another day or part of a day to debate the general contents of the report, none of us will be aware of the intentions of the Government with regard to the report's many proposals.

As regards the physical fitness campaign, the Secretary of State said that there could not be proper conditions of fitness among the people of Scotland without good health, and I think we are all agreed upon that. He suggested that a certain grant was being made to local authorities for the purposes of providing playing fields and other recreational facilities, as well as for the assistance of the local authorities in these matters. Unfortunately, owing to the changes which take place in the normal life of Parliament, the present Parliamentary representatives of the Scottish Office—the Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary, and the Law Officers—are entirely different from those who held office when the last Scottish Housing Bill was passed. At that time an Amendment of mine was accepted by the late Secretary of State, which laid it down that, in planning housing schemes, it was to be enjoined upon the local authorities that facilities should be given for recreational purposes for the benefit of those who were going to be housed under the new schemes. I am not quite satisfied with the manner in which that provision has been carried into effect—

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Robert Young)

Is the hon. Member discussing the question of housing?

Mr. MacLean

No, Sir Robert; I am discussing the giving of recreational facilities under the housing schemes, to which reference was made by the Secretary of State when he mentioned a grant to the Scottish local authorities for these purposes. I think I am quite within the limits of the Debate in mentioning the recreational facilities that are to be provided in connection with housing schemes. There is in the Estimate an item: "Physical training and recreation (Scotland). (Physical Training and Recreation Act, 1937)." I shall not deal with anything in relation to the houses inhabited, or likely to be inhabited, as the result of housing schemes, but with the lack of recreational facilities for the people, and particularly for the young people, in those houses, in regard to which the Secretary of State himself told the Committee that a grant was to be given to local authorities. I am hoping that the Secretary of State and his officials will bring very definitely before the local authorities of Scotland the fact that they are not either fulfilling the purpose of the Act of 1937 or carrying out what was laid down in the last Scottish Housing Act. I want now to refer to what I consider to be a dereliction of duty, or an evasion of a promise or pledge that was given to the House some years ago. An Act of Parliament was passed, giving authority for the building of a new criminal lunatic prison in Scotland, and during the Debate which took place on that Measure—

The Temporary Chairman

The question of Prisons does not arise on this Vote. There is a separate Vote for Prisons.

Mr. Maclean

If you will permit me, Sir Robert, to go on for a little while, you will see that that is merely a preface. I am dealing, not with prisons, but with the pledge that was made to the House by the late Secretary of State for Scotland and the Scottish Law Officers. During that Debate, attention was drawn to certain things that were being done in regard to individuals of weak intellect, and to the manner in which they were being certified for the purposes of being sent to a criminal lunatic prison. We took the matter up, and Amendments to the Bill were put down. The Secretary of State, the Under-Secretary, the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor-General for Scotland, during the passage of that Bill, were all in sympathy with our proposals. Our main proposal was that, instead of two officers of the Department being permitted to certify any of these people as being devoid of intelligence, insane, or mentally defective, one of the two should be, not an employé or servant of the Department, but someone from outside, preferably a medical man who knew something of the family history of the individual who was being examined. That was the proposal put forward, and it was accepted by the Government, the Secretary of State for Scotland and his Department being themselves responsible for the Amendment which was put down on the Report stage and accepted by the House as safeguarding the rights and the lives and liberties of those individuals. We thought everything had been safeguarded.

A few months ago a question was asked in this House regarding a lunatic. The reply was that the individual had been certified by two medical officers of the Department. I put a supplementary question to the Under-Secretary for Scotland, and he could not answer it. He met me afterwards in the Lobby, and asked me to what Act of Parliament I had been referring. I mentioned the Act of Parliament, and stated the circumstances in which this had been accepted by the Government and put on the Statute Book. I received a letter some time afterwards, signed by the Under-Secretary, in which it was stated that the Amendment that had been put down in order to meet the wishes of a number of Members in the Scottish group who were present at the Committee stage in the Scottish Grand Committee did not apply generally, as it had been expected that it would when the Amendment was accepted, but was only to apply to the individuals who were to be committed, or likely to be committed, to the new Scottish criminal prison which was to be erected at Carstairs. The point is that in Scotland to-day the safeguarding of those individuals has been turned down by the Government Department. They are either riding off on a technical reading of the law or they have not read the reports of the Debates that took place during the passage of that Bill, and they are now acting as though these poor people who are likely to be confined in the existing places are not to receive the benefit of the pledge given by the then Secretary of State for Scotland and the legal officers of the Crown for Scotland.

It is because of this breach of a pledge to the House that I am moving the reduction in the salary of the Secretary for Scotland. He, of course, is not personally responsible; neither is the Under-Secretary. The Solicitor-General has changed, and so has the Lord Advocate. The four leading servants of the Crown who then represented Scottish affairs in this House have now gone. One is a judge, and one is a sheriff, while the other two have passed over, and were a loss to this House. But the promise they made was not made as individuals, but as representing the Government, and when we find to-day that protection is not given to people who are in those unfortunate circumstances because of some quirk that is in the law, I submit that this House has been misled—if not deliberately, at least actually—by the Department responsible to this House. I know quite well that when the Under-Secretary replies I shall be told that this refers only to that prison. I would like to know when that prison is to be built. Is it started yet? Have they laid the foundation stone for it yet?

Mr. Colville

indicated assent.

Mr. Maclean

They have laid the foundation stone for it? Where?

Mr. Colville

I do not know how far I can answer the hon. Member on what is purely a matter for the Prisons Vote, but I can assure him that considerable work has been done.

Mr. Maclean

Considerable work may have been done, but there is no saying when the prison will be completed, or when it will operate, and until it operates these people will not have that protection, and when it is built only the people in that prison will be entitled to that protection.

The Temporary Chairman

Perhaps the Secretary of State can help me as to the Vote upon which this would be relevant? I think it is the Prisons (Scotland) Vote.

Mr. Colville

Yes, that is the one dealing with the institution.

Mr. Maclean

But I am not dealing with the institution. I 'am dealing with a breach of a pledge given to this House by the Department of the Secretary of State. It is upon the Vote for the salary of the Secretary of State that I must raise any question of maladministration. It is that that I am raising here and now. Though I have to bring in the criminal lunatic prison that is at present under process of construction, and has been under process of construction since 1935, it is only in order to keep the Secretary of State informed as to the particular Act of Parliament which I am alleging has been violated by the Department's officials.

Mr. Colville

As you have appealed to me, Sir Robert, on the subject, I think the whole point could be raised on the Prisons (Scotland) Vote; but as the hon. Member has raised it and wishes to have an answer, if you will allow my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary to reply to it, that will be done. I have a general responsibility for many matters, but it is usual and proper to raise them on the Votes to which they are related. But if the Chairman will allow him to do so, my hon. Friend will reply on this subject.

The Temporary Chairman

No, I cannot say that. I may not be in the Chair.

Mr. Maclean

On a point of Order. I am not dealing with the prison, or any prospective inmate of the prison, but with a breach of administration in the office of the Secretary of State, and I deal with that in the same way as it would be appropriate to deal with a similar case on the salary of the Home Secretary in respect of England and Wales.

The Temporary Chairman

The hon. Member is quite entitled to raise any question on the salary of the Secretary of State, provided that there is not another Estimate on which it can be discussed. He can raise any questions on the salary of the Secretary of State generally which are not covered by any other Votes, but it seems to me that this can be raised on the Prisons Vote.

Mr. Maclean

But there can be no administration of the criminal prison on that Vote, because the prison is not yet built. It is still in the building contractors' hands. I am dealing with practices which are at present being carried on in Scotland, which we believe should be stopped. That is where maladministration occurs in the Department of the Secretary of State.

The Temporary Chairman

But that should be raised on the Vote for the Prisons Department.

Mr. Maclean

How can I bring up a matter on the Prisons Department Vote when the particular Act of which I am speaking refers specifically, and was passed specifically, in order to authorise the Secretary of State for Scotland to see that a new prison is built. It does not deal with a prison, except to give the right to the Secretary of State for Scotland to build the prison. This matter is not dealing with the prison, as there is no one in the prison. This does not deal with people in Scotland who are in that prison or on the site of that prison, but it deals with people in Scotland to whom we expected that the benefit of that legislation was going to be applied and who are not receiving the benefit of that legislation. Consequently, I consider, with all respect to you, Sir Robert, that I am perfectly in order in dealing with the Secretary of State for Scotland on the Scottish Office Estimate. We are dealing with Scottish affairs, and we have a Scottish Chairman who has allowed me to go on very well, and I am grateful to him for the latitude he has given, but I still maintain that I am within my rights in criticising the Secretary of State. I wish the Secretary of State for Scotland to say why these things are not being done, and I will quote one particular part of the proceedings in the Committee. I said: The Amendment gives the power mentioned … that you can go outside the Department. That is, outside the Department for the appointment of a medical man to examine an individual who is accused of being insane. The Lord Advocate said: Certainly we can, but it does not mean necessarily that you must go to the Board of Control or to any Government Department doctor. I said: You can go outside and select anyone, even one who has no connection with the Government service? And the Lord Advocate said: Yes. Upon the lines which followed the decision in the Scottish Standing Committee, the Amendment, which is now part of the Act of Parliament, was carried. I submit that, as the Government are not carrying it into effect but sending letters to say that these circumstances are only to be applicable after this prison is completed and inmates are sent to it, they are misleading the House. I am asking the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he is prepared to adopt the Amendment that was passed in order to suit us, and with our agreement, and to introduce methods by which it can be put into operation, so that it can be applied to people who are not receiving the benefits that we believed they would receive when the Act was passed in 1935.

8.49 P.m.

Mr. Henderson Stewart

The right hon. Gentleman has told us, and we have heard it with pleasure, that the new building on the Calton Hill is to be ready in the autumn of next year.

The Temporary Chairman

Is the hon. Gentleman referring to the new criminal lunatic asylum?

Mr. Stewart

No, Sir Robert.

Mr. Maclean

May I draw attention to the fact that it will be inhabited by the Secretary of State for Scotland and his officers?

Mr. Stewart

I apologise to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) for not being able to follow him into the particular matter he was raising. I am referring to the site at the top of Calton Hill. I have felt for a long time that we should take a step forward. In this particular matter we have made a gesture to the national feelings of Scotland and said that we will have a more magnificent building on the top of that hill.

Mr. Mathers

Not on the top of the hill.

Mr. Stewart

Not on the top of the hill but very near the top. Cannot we take a further logical step and include in that building an official residence for the Secretary of State for Scotland? It would be a proper thing to do. This is the highest office to which any Scotsman could have ambitions, but it would give it even a higher status if there was in Edinburgh an official permanent residence of the head of the Scottish government.

Mr. Kirkwood

Would it not be better, instead of erecting a new building, to set aside Holyrood Palace?

Mr. Stewart

That is an interesting suggestion, but I imagine that Holyrood Palace has other functions. I am not sure that we should not advance with the times and provide the Secretary of State with a new modern residence within this new group of buildings. With regard to the Scottish Office which was created in Edinburgh by the late Sir Godfrey Collins, may I confirm what my right hon. Friend said about the completely satisfactory results of the establishment of that office? The officers there have given great satisfaction to Scottish local authorities and every local authority with which I am in contact has expressed pleasure and relief that they are now able to settle so many problems without having to come all the way to London.

There is one other point I wish to mention in regard to the statement which my right hon. Friend said he wished to make next week upon the Gilmour Committee's Report. The announcement he will make will be of the very greatest importance to Scotland. Suppose that statement is made on Wednesday afternoon—we know that the programme for the whole of next week is already filled up and that we shall have no opportunity whatever of discussing it—I feel that our constituents in Scotland will feel somewhat dissatisfied that their representatives will have no chance to express their views upon it. It is certainly not for the Secretary of State for Scotland to deal with business, but the Scottish Office have considerable power, and I would ask my right hon. Friend to use his good offices in the proper quarters and suggest that part of the Debate on the Adjournment on Friday next might be devoted to this matter. I feel that we shall not be doing properly by our country if we do not take whatever parliamentary opportunity there is to discuss this most important subject.

8.54 P.m.

Mr. Kirkwood

I wish to raise the question of conditions in the Western Isles, which I have been in the habit of visiting for the last 16 years. I spent eight days cruising round the Western Isles last month, and I found the conditions there gradually getting worse. That is an appalling statement to make. We sit here and listen to the Secretary of State for Scotland telling us of the wonderful things that they are going to do to improve the physique of the people of Scotland, yet here is a part of Scotland which, in my opinion, the Scottish Office is absolutely neglecting. It is true that the report which has been submitted to us is a very good one from the orthodox point of view. We are living in a new age; in the age of speed. The Isles of Scotland are speedily becoming depopulated. The conditions at the moment are absolutely appalling to anyone who has a love of his native land, not simply a romantic love of nature's wildest grandeur, but who has a regard for its most important feature—human beings. Not only are the Western Isles wondrously beautiful, but with the Highlands of Scotland they have produced right down through the ages a hardy and intelligent race.

Figures have been submitted by the Scottish Office itself, not by me, who may be accused of being biased, because I am politically opposed to the present leaders in control of the Scottish Office, proving that it is getting worse and worse. Every time I visit the Western Isles I see them getting worse and worse. I was led to believe from childhood to manhood that this was the place which bred a wonderful independent race of men and women, burly men and beautiful women, but when I visit them now I find that the great desire of the natives, whose blood has bedewed the heather in defence of their native land in former generations, is not to visit these beautiful spots, but to flee from them. The mothers of the boys, the wife of the minister, the wife of the doctor, the wife of the local lawyer, are appealing to me to try to get their sons a job on the Clyde, to get them into the offices or into some of my lawyer friends' offices in Glasgow, to get away from the place. This is a very serious matter, because it is as true to-day in regard to Scotland as it was when it was first penned about England that a bold peasantry When once destroyed, can never be supplied. I want the Secretary of State to face the position. As I said last night—the Secretary of State was not then present, but I am glad to see him present tonight—

Mr. Colville

I read the hon. Member's observations of last night, and I want to assure him that I was absent only a short time on a most important matter on which, I think, he will agree, Scotland should not be unrepresented.

Mr. Kirkwood

I can assure the Secretary of State for Scotland that if I have said anything to which he takes exception I will gladly withdraw it. The reason I am glad he is present to-night is that I have appealed to seven Secretaries of State for Scotland to have courage. I have never challenged the ability of any one of the Secretaries of State or the under-Secretaries of State, but I have challenged their courage, and it is courage that is required. It will take a big man; but here a glorious opportunity presents itself to the Secretary of State for Scotland. I know that he is as proud to be a Scotsman as I am, but it is no use revering the heroes of Scotland as we do unless we are prepared to emulate the heroism which we respect. Anyone who takes upon himself the highest honour Scotland can give to one of her sons—because the Secretary of State for Scotland is a Cabinet in himself, and not only the representative of the King—carries weight such as no other Cabinet Minister carries, and I would like him to carry that weight and honour into the Cabinet. I want the Secretary of State for Scotland to go to the Cabinet as the Secretary of State for Scotland ought to go, bow to nobody, not even to the Prime Minister of Great Britain. I see Members of the Cabinet coming into this House and pushing the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Lord Advocate into the background. If I were there they would not put me in the background.

The reason I have said this as an introduction to my remarks is because this is something which is very very serious. There is an Isle nine miles by seven miles in extent which used to maintain a population of about 1,000, and there is not a living soul on it to-day. They have been driven from house and home across the Atlantic Sea. You sail up the Western Isles, you leave behind Isles that are well looked after, Colonsay, Tiree, and then you come to Rum. The Isle of Rum is nine miles by seven and in 1828 maintained boo of a population. It is not only deserted now, but you are not allowed to land on it—an English gentleman of the name of Bullough comes along and buys it, and he will not allow anyone to land on it. The Isle of Rum—the natives, the clansmen, cleared out. I have said it before in this House, and it is an undeniable and an irrefutable fact, that if the Germans had wanted it, they could have come and bought it. The only people to whom it belongs are the craftsmen, not the ruling class of this country, not the great and wealthy, but the common people who love their native land, and who would not sell their native land. Why, if the Germans had got Rum, they would allow us to land; probably they would charge us something for landing, but they would not debar us from getting on it. That same individual would be brazen enough, no doubt, to call the clansmen together to fight for their native land if the Germans dared to enter Rum. It is too funny for words. We are not going to stand for it.

I hope the Secretary of State will take this matter very seriously. I do not want to threaten him in any way or to say any hard things, because my experience as a Member leads me to the conclusion that to do that does not cut any ice; but the Secretary of State may depend upon it that anything I can do I will do to support them in having all these wrongs put right. These wrongs are grievous wrongs. There is the great Isle of Lewis, right from Harris in the South to the Butt of Lewis, where everything is allowed to go, but where there used to be 30,000 inhabitants. The Isle of Skye, during the Napoleonic Wars which lasted 21 years, sent 10,000 men to the British army. They could not send 1,000 now from the whole Isle of Skye. The Isle happens to have a chieftainess now, the MacLeod of MacLeod, who is most anxious to do what she can to mitigate the conditions that exist in and around her part of Skye. Last month she showed me a document which she treasures dearly; it is about a former MacLeod of MacLeod to whom the clansmen appealed to raise the tribute they paid for the land they cultivated. That is the spirit we are trying to engender to-day throughout the length and breadth of the Highlands, and it will be possible to do so if the Secretary of State is in earnest and uses the power which he has.

I ask the Secretary of State to visit the Islands. He should not go in a cruiser, as others have gone, because he could not get into the places in that way. Let him go by the passenger boat, which can take only 30 passengers on board. Let him go to Leverburgh, where a great establishment was erected by Lord Leverhulme in order to do something for the Islands. Leverburgh is a great centre for distribution to other parts of the Islands. The men who bring in the boat do so at their peril, for the whole pier is derelict and falling down. The passengers, when they land, do so at their own risk. I am riot telling the Committee about Russia, but about Scotland, my native land. I ask the Minister to go and see it for himself. Let him go and see the doctor, and the schoolmaster, and they will tell him. Let him go to Barra, which is one of the best places as far as trade is concerned, and see what is happening. The people are going down to the level that they are accepting what the Employment Exchange will give them. The great outstanding characteristic of my race, independence, has gone. There is none of it. They are satisfied now if they can get on to the books of the Employment Exchange, and they study the methods of doing so. I do not blame them; I blame the conditions that have reduced them to that level.

That is the situation as I see it. It is the duty of the Secretary of State to face that situation. Those men are the descendants of the men who played no mean part during the greatest of all wars They are the men who swept the German fleet off the North Sea, the most dangerous work that had to be taken on during the War. They came back to find that their country had become derelict. Let me quote what one of the greatest statesmen and builders of the British Empire said about these men. The quotation is from a speech by the Earl of Chatham in the House of Lords on 14th January, 1765. In order that the Committee may understand the quotation, let me explain that in 1765–20 years after the Highlanders and Islanders were backing Prince Charlie against the Government—the Earl of Chatham said: I have no local attachments; it is indifferent to me, whether a man was rocked in his cradle on this side or that side of the Tweed. I sought for merit wherever it was to be found. It is my boast, that I was the first minister who looked for it, and I found it in the mountains in the North. I called it forth, and drew it into your service, a hardy and intrepid race of men! men who, when left by your jealousy, became a prey to the artifices of your enemies, and had gone nigh to have overturned the State in the war before the last. These men in the last war were brought to combat on your side; they served with fidelity, as they fought with valour, and conquered for you in every part of the world. It is for the descendants of those men that I appeal to-day, as a Scotsman, to the Secretary of State for Scotland. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to quit himself like a man, and see to it that the wrongs which are being committed to-day in the Highlands of Scotland are righted. If he makes that attempt he will have no greater supporter than the Member for Dumbarton Burghs.

9.15 p.m.

Sir Henry Fildes

I wish to intervene for a few minutes to recount the experience which I have had as a Scottish Member in relation to the Scottish Office. I have repeatedly raised questions affecting Scotland in this House only to be met with the reply, "The Secretary of State has no power to deal with the matter." I had hoped that the Secretary of State would have been able to do something in the case of those men who, as it now turns out, have been wrongly rated and have been paying rates which are now stated to have been unfairly levied. I should like to know whether it will be possible to give compensation to those men in respect of rates paid by them which have since been declared to have been illegally levied. A second point which I wish to put forward refers to the condition of the smallholders in Scotland.

The Temporary Chairman

I am afraid that the hon. Member is going beyond the scope of the Vote which is before the Committee.

Sir H. Fildes

I thank you, Sir Robert for your Ruling. I only ask the Secretary of State if there is an opportunity later on, to give us some information on those points. Like other Members from Scotland I expect great things from the present Secretary of State. The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) told us that he recalled seven Secretaries of State for Scotland including Lord Novar, Sir Godfrey Collins, Mr. William Adamson, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pollok (Sir J. Gilmour) and the present Minister of Health, and he added that he was expecting more from the present occupant of the Office than we had ever received before. I put this to the Secretary of State. If, on looking through the list of his duties, he finds that he is hampered in any respect by regulations, or if he finds that he has no power at present to deal with injustices, will he not take steps to secure the necessary powers? I am sure that he will have the support of every Member of this House if, in cases where he finds that he has not the necessary powers to remedy injustices, he will take steps to secure those powers for himself and his successors in office.

9.18 p.m.

Mr. Cassells

I wish to make certain at the outset of my remarks that anything which I say will be strictly in order, and I therefore indicate at once that the matter which I intend to raise, subject to your Ruling, Sir Robert, is the question of the treatment of juvenile delinquents to which reference has already been made by the Secretary of State. The right hon. Gentleman drew attention to the fact that the latest results of the probationary system in Scotland showed a measure of successful achievement. I propose to canvass that point and to indicate that a suggestion which I placed before the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor in the Scottish Standing Committee some time ago for a further improvement in the treatment of juvenile delinquents, would be advantageous to the community. The point arises on paragraphs F, H, and I, in the Vote. I entirely favour the system of probation. At the same time, I submit with respect and confidence to the right hon. Gentleman that it has definite disadvantages, particularly when the question arises of supervision by a probation officer. Only two days ago the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) put a question to the Minister with regard to a probation officer in the county of Fife and I wish to suggest that, under certain conditions, the enlistment of the services, even of a probation officer is unnecessary. On 14th July I put the following question to the right hon. Gentleman: What instructions have been given by his Department to judges presiding in the inferior courts of Scotland quoad the examination of juvenile delinquents by psycho-analysts prior to sentence being imposed? The reason for that question was a specific undertaking given to me in the Scottish Standing Committee when the Criminal Procedure Bill was under discussion, that a suggestion which I made with regard to utilising the services of a psycho-analyst would be fully considered. I was greatly shocked and astonished at the nature of the reply given by the Under-Secretary. It was: No instructions are issued by my right hon. Friend to courts in Scotland. It has, however, been recommended to all courts that on every occasion when there is any suspicion of defect or abnormality a medical and mental examination should be conducted by the most skilful specialist available,"—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 14th July, 1938; col. 1556, Vol. 338.] My comment on that answer is that it shows a complete lack of knowledge or of sympathy on the part of the right hon. Gentleman's Department as regards the present position. I have had considerable experience in cases of this sort, and anyone who has had any experience of such cases is bound to admit that in almost every instance of juvenile delinquency there is a defect of some sort or other in the delinquent. Yet the only satisfaction I can get is the statement that on every occasion when there is any suspicion of defect or abnormality an examination is to be made. I contend that a great percentage of the expenditure on Borstal treatment, approved schools and the probationary system could be avoided if, in many of these cases, in the first instance, the service of a psychoanalyst were enlisted. Is there any justification for that? Instead of the position improving, so far as criminal statistics are concerned, it is definitely becoming worse.

The Lord Advocate cannot possibly say that the increase in the incidence of crime is to be accounted for by the increase in the number of convictions under the Road Traffic Act. Making due allowance for that, there is still definitely an increase. In 1927 the number of convictions was 120,246; in 1935, it was 117,737; and in 1936 it had increased to the enormous number of 128,899. No material change has taken place in the number of juvenile delinquents sent to schools of some sort—Borstal institutions for example. In 1919 the number was 118; in 1933, 135; in 1934, 118; in 1935, 122; and in 1936, 119. In the case of approved schools the figures are for 1934, 367; 1935, 411; and 1936, 426. Whipping orders in 1929 amounted to 183; in 1930, 161; and in 1936, 230. Cases committed to the care of a suitable person in 1934 were eight; in 1935, two; and in 1936, two. These figures speak for themselves and show that the cases are increasing. I heartily encourage the right hon. Gentleman in the venture that he now has in hand in regard to the probationary system, but I would seriously ask him to consider my suggestion from the point of view of trying to help these young people in the battle of life.

I wish to raise a point in connection with air-raid precautions. In Dumbarton a scheme has been drawn up by the county council. Long before it was ever formulated the Department in Edinburgh was approached by the town council of Milngavie, which is a very progressive body. It placed before the Department a very particular and concise plan of its own to take care of the waterworks of the Glasgow Corporation, which are within the confines of the burgh. There is a complete block between the two bodies. The county council is endeavouring to force its scheme upon the town council, which says that in no circumstances will it have anything to do with it. I suggest, irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the question, that the right hon. Gentleman should receive a deputation from the town council. Unless the Department is prepared to give regard and consideration to the position of the town council there will be no co-operation of any sort between these two very important authorities, and it may very well be that, if the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to listen to a deputation from the Milngavie people, he could make them understand that they ought to co-operate more with the county council in the future than they have done in the past. I shall exercise any little influence that I possess in an effort to see that there is complete co-operation between these two authorities in this very important problem.

9.32 p.m.

Mr. Wedderburn

I am afraid this Vote is very much in the nature of a mixed grill. It appears very doubtful whether some of the subjects that have been raised are in order or not. The first point raised by the hon. Member who has just spoken we anticipated would be raised on the following Vote, and the Lord Advocate had intended to reply.

Mr. Cassells

I fully intended to raise it on the Lord Advocate's Vote, but in view of the fact that the Chairman permitted the Secretary of State to raise the question of the probationary system I was compelled to discuss it here.

Mr. Wedderburn

I was not suggesting that it ought not to have been raised on another Vote. I only mentioned it as a a illustration that the Vote is rather like a mixed grill. The position is this: It would not have been possible for any undertaking to be given in the Scottish Standing Committee that my right hon. Friend should instruct the courts to do anything because he is not in a position to give instructions to courts of justice. What he has done is to make the recommendation referred to in my answer which the hon. Member read. With regard to the psycho-therapeutic treatment of young delinquents, the treatment, if given, is generally combined in England with Borstal detention. This form of treatment is still in an experimental stage in England, and, if it is found satisfactory there, it will be extended to Scotland.

Mr. Cassells

Is not the hon. Gentleman aware that in quite a number of the English courts the services of a psychoanalyist are available and have been for some time?

Mr. Wedderburn

I have gone on to another point. I am now talking about psycho-therapy after sentence. With regard to the evidence of a psycho-analyst before sentence, the position is as stated in my reply to the hon. Gentleman

The hon. Member also came back to another subject on which he had put a Parliamentary question, and that is the unfortunate disagreement which appears to have taken place between the Dumbartonshire County Council and the Milngavie Town Council. Under the Air-Raids Precautions Act, 1937, air-raid general precautions schemes fall to be prepared and submitted by county councils and large burghs in Scotland, but the Secretary of State has power, on the application of a small burgh and after consultation with the county council, to direct a small burgh to prepare a separate scheme. Milngavie did apply to be allowed to prepare a separate scheme under the Act, but after consulting the county council, who objected, the Secretary of State refused the application.

Milngavie is a small burgh with a population of just over 5,000 persons, and the only places in which separate schemes for boroughs or urban districts have been approved in England are large centres like Cambridge, Swindon, and Luton. No small burgh in Scotland apart from Milngavie has applied for permission to submit a separate scheme. I know that the desire for a separate scheme on the part of Milngavie is based on the fear that that burgh would not receive proper consideration, under the county scheme, and it is an unfortunate fact that in this respect the relations between the county and the burgh have apparently been strained for some time. The position is not rendered any easier by the fact that on this subject the relations between the county council and the Glasgow Town Council, who have an interest in the matter, seem to be equally frigid.

Following on the refusal to allow Milngavie to prepare a separate scheme, the county council asked the town council for their scheme, prepared by the burgh previous to the Act, for incorporation in the county scheme. The town council have not complied with that application, and they have not sent a representative to a provisional technical committee which the county council proposed to set up. The position now is that the town council have a statutory duty under Section 1 (2) of the Act to assist the county council in the preparation of a county scheme. When the scheme which is now being prepared by the county council, and which is not yet complete, is referred to the town council, I do not anticipate that the latter will decline to carry out their statutory duty.

Mr. Cassells

Does the hon. Gentleman not know that this scheme has been in the hands of the Milngavie Town Council for weeks now, and that they have refused to have anything at all to do with it; and in these circumstances will he not, despite the fact that Milngavie is a small burgh, give them the consideration for which I ask?

Mr. Wedderburn

I cannot undertake to allow them to have a separate scheme, but when the hon. Member interrupted me, I was about to say that I hope the burgh will be prepared to co-operate. My right hon. Friend would be very glad to receive a deputation from them at that stage in the hope of seeing whether any reasonable solution can be found, and particularly whether a better relationship can be created between them and the county.

The hon. Member for Dumbarton Burghs (Mr. Kirkwood) made a very eloquent speech on the subject of the Highlands and Islands. I am afraid that the only item affecting the Western Highlands and Islands which comes under this Vote is that for £31,000 to meet the cost of transport services. The present position is that the contract with MacBraynes, which was made in 1928, will come to an end on 31st October of this year, and negotiations are now proceeding for a new contract.

The hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean) raised a matter in connection with the Criminal Lunatics (Scotland) Act, 1935, and said that this was the reason why he had moved a reduction of £100 in the Vote. I must do my best, as my right hon. Friend undertook that I would do, to reply to the hon. Member and to keep in order, though it may perhaps be a matter which ought to have been raised on the Prisons Vote. If the hon. Member will look at Sub-section (1) of Section 4 of the 1935 Act, he will find: It shall be lawful for the Department to order the removal to and detention in the criminal lunatic asylum of any person undergoing sentence of penal servitude, preventive detention or imprisonment … in whose case it is certified by two duly qualified medical practitioners that he is insane and that it is advisable that he should be detained in the criminal lunatic asylum rather than in any other asylum. It is a matter which it is a little difficult to explain, but the position is that at Barlinnie Prison and Perth Prison certificates are normally given by two prison doctors employed at those prisons, and at Edinburgh Prison the certificates are normally given by the prison doctor and by the medical adviser to the Prisons Department. At all other prisons the certification is normally by the prison doctor and a doctor independent of the prison service. Under the existing law any or all the foregoing certificates can be granted by doctors in the employment of the Prisons Department. When the Criminal Lunatics (Scotland) Act, 1935, comes into operation—and the hon. Member will see from Sub-section (4) of Section 4 that that shall be such date as the Secretary of State may appoint, and will in fact be the date when the new asylum at Lampits is ready for occupation—the existing law will be altered in two important respects. Firstly, while it will remain competent to remove a person from prison to the new criminal lunatic asylum on certificates by two doctors in the employment of the prison authorities, it will be open to that person, or to someone on his behalf, to demand that he be examined by an independent doctor, and the Secretary of State will then be under an obligation to consider the report of any such independent doctor. Secondly, no person will be liable to be detained in the criminal lunatic asylum after the expiry of his sentence, unless one medical certificate is granted by a doctor who is not a salaried officer of the Prisons Department.

I did not attend the Scottish Standing Committee when this Criminal Lunatics (Scotland) Act was going through as a Bill, and I do not remember what was said, but it is evident that there must have been some misapprehension in the hon. Member's mind as to the precise effect, at least in point of time, of the Amendment which he says was introduced partly on his own initiative. With regard to the letter which I wrote to him on the subject, if there is any further point arising out of it on which he still thinks there is ground for misunderstanding, I shall be very glad if he will submit the matter to me again.

9.45 P.m.

Mr. Maclean

I am perfectly clear in my memory about what transpired on the Second Reading and on the Committee stage of this Measure, and later on the Report stage when the Lord Advocate read the Amendment which he put down to meet the point that we had made in the Amendments which we had moved on the Committee stage. We were under the impression then that in getting the concession which we were given we were freeing all individuals, not merely those who were going into this place, but those who were presently in it, and getting them the right to be examined by a departmental doctor and one doctor who might be the family doctor and would know the history of the case, or some independent outside doctor. It was upon that understanding that we gave that Measure the easy passage that it obtained in 1935. Had we known that the situation was as has now been placed before us, we would have obstructed the Bill until we got what we desired or we would have wrecked it. I again insist that we were misled by the statements that were made to us. I do not say we were misled intentionally; there was probably a lack of understanding between the two sides; but we were misled about what we were receiving in the Amendment that was put before the House by the Lord Advocate. We are now insisting upon that which we were promised in 1935 being made good and upon the rights and liberties of these people protected.

Mr. Wedderburn

All I can do now is to state what is the effect of the Act. It does allow a person to be sent to an asylum on the certificate of two doctors, whether in the employment of the Prisons Department or not. I understand that the position which the hon. Gentleman puts to me is that, whatever the effect of the Act may be, it is inconsistent with the impression which he and others were given in the Debates in Committee when the Measure was going through.

Mr. Maclean

May I put this point? The Under-Secretary has just read a statement showing that it need not necessarily be two doctors of the Prison Department.

During the Debates on the Measure, we were informed by the Lord Advocate that that meant that one of the doctors could be from one of the other Departments and not an outside doctor. What we are insisting on is that it should be an outside doctor.

Mr. Wedderburn

All I can do is to explain what is in the Act. I understand that the hon. Member is now suggesting that the Act is inconsistent with the impression he was given in Committee, and I shall be glad if he will help me to elucidate that matter by referring me to the OFFICIAL REPORTS. I shall be glad to look into it and see whether I can help him in any way or reconcile any inconsistency which may appear to exist.

Mr. Maclean

I will see that the position is placed before the Under-Secretary.

Mr. Wedderburn

The only other hon. Member who has addressed the Committee is my hon. Friend the Member for East Fife (Mr. Henderson Stewart), who made what seemed an attractive suggestion that part of the new building on Calton Hill, Edinburgh, should be used as a residence for the Secretary of State. I am not sure whether he meant that I should be allowed to go there too. Since the Chairman inadvertently referred to this building as a criminal lunatic asylum, I am not at this moment anxious to take up the suggestion.

Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £148,221, be granted for the said Service."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 157.

Division No. 314.]	AYES.	[9.51 p.m.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple)	Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)	Hardie, Agnes
Adamson, W. M.	Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)	Harris, Sir P. A,
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)	Dobbie, W.	Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Ammon, C. G.	Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)	Henderson, J. (Ardwick)
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.	Ede, J. C.	Henderson, T. (Tradeston)
Barnes, A. J.	Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.)	Hills, A. (Pontefract)
Barr, J.	Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)	Hollins, A.
Batey, J.	Evans, D. O. (Cardigan)	Jagger, J.
Bellenger, F. J.	Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.	Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath)
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.	Foot, D. M.	Johnston, Rt. Hon. T.
Brown, C. (Mansfield)	Gallacher, W.	Jones, A. C. (Shipley)
Buchanan, G.	Gardner, B. W.	Kelly, W. T.
Burke, W. A.	Garro Jones, G. M.	Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T.
Cassells, T.	George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey)	Kirkwood, D.
Chater, D.	Gibson, R. (Greenock)	Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G.
Cluse, W. S.	Green, W. H. (Deptford)	Leach, W.
Cocks, F. S.	Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.	Leonard, W.
Cove, W. G.	Grenfell, D. R.	Leslie, J. R.
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford	Griffiths, J. (Llanelly)	McEntee, V. La T.
Daggar, G.	Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)	McGhee, H. G.
Dalton, H.	Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)	McGovern, J.
MacLaren, A.	Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W.	Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Maclean, N.	Poole, C. C.	Tinker, J. J.
Mathers, G.	Price, M. P.	Tomlinson, G.
Maxton, J.	Quibell, D. J. K.	Viant, S. P.
Messer, F.	Ritson, J.	Walkden, A. G.
Milner, Major J.	Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)	Watkins, F. C.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.)	Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey)	Whiteley, W. (Blaydon)
Naylor, T. E.	Seely, Sir H. M	Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Oliver, G. H.	Simpson, F. B.	Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Paling, W.	Smith, E. (Stoke)
Parker, J.	Stephen, C.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Parkinson, J. A.	Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)	Mr. Anderson and Mr. Charleton.
Pearson, A.	Stokes, R. R.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G, J.	Fleming, E. L.	Petherick, M.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.)	Furness, S. N.	Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comadr. P. G.	Fyfe, D. P. M.	Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead)	Gluckstein, L. H.	Procter, Major H. A.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)	Goldie, N. B.	Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J.	Gower, Sir R. V.	Ramsden, Sir E.
Aske, Sir R. W.	Grant-Ferris, R.	Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Assheton, R.	Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)	Rayner, Major R. H.
Atholl, Duohess of	Grimston, R. V.	Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Baillie, Sir A. W. M.	Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.)	Reed, Sir H. S. (Aylesbury)
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M.	Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W,	Reid, J. S. C. (Hillhead)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H.	Hambro, A. V.	Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.	Hannah, I. C.	Remer, J. R.
Bossom, A. C.	Hannon, Sir P. J. H.	Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Bewer, Comdr. R. T.	Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton)	Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Boyce, H. Leslie	Heilgers, Captain F. F. A.	Ropner, Colonel L.
Broadbridge, Sir G. T.	Hely-Hutchinson, M. R.	Ross, Major sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham)	Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan-	Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith)	Hepworth, J.	Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Bull, B. B.	Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth)	Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Campbell, Sir E. T.	Holmes, J. S.	Salmon, Sir I.
Cary, R. A.	Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.	Salt, E. W.
Castlereagh, Viscount	Hopkinson, A.	Soott, Lord William
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.)	Horsbrugh, Florenoe	Selley, H. R.
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)	Hume, Sir G. H.	Shakespeare, G. H.
Chapman, Sir S. (Edinburgh, S.)	Hutchinson, G. C.	Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Clarry, Sir Reginald	Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n)	Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston)	Jones, L. (Swansea W.)	Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D.
Colville, Rt. Hon. John	Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)	Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.)	Lamb, Sir J. Q.	Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.)	Liddall, W. S.	Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L.	Lindsay, K. M.	Spens. W. P.
Cox, H. B. Trevor	Lipson, D. L.	Storey, S.
Craven-Ellis, W.	Llewellin, Colonel J. J.	Sueter, Rear-Admiral, Sir M. F.
Crooke, Sir J. Smedley	Loftus, P. C	Tufnell Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C.	Mabane, W. (Huddersfield)	Wakefield, W. W.
Croom-Johnson, R. P.	MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.	Walker-Smith Sir J.
Cross, R. H.	Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)	Ward Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Davidson, Viscountess	Makins, Brigadier-General Sir Ernest	Warrender, Sir V.
De Chair, S. S.	Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.	Waterhouse, Captain C.
Dower, Major A. V. G.	Markham, S. F	Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Dugdale, Captain T. L.	Marsden, Commander A.	Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Duggan, H. J,	Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.	Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Duncan, J. A. L.	Mellor, Sir J. S. P.(Tamworth)	Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Dunglass, Lord	Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)	Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G.
Eckersley P. T.	Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)	winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.	Moore, Lleut.-Col. Sir T. C. R.	Wise, A. R.
Elliston, Capt. G. S.	Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.	Womersley, Sir W. J.
Emery, J. F.	Morris, J. P. (Salford, N.)	Young, A. S. L.(Partick)
Emrys-Evans, P. V.	Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)
Errington, E.	Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Everard, W. L.	Munro, P.	Mr. Jameg stuart and Lleut.-
Fildes, Sir H.	O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh	Colonel Kerr.
Findlay, Sir E.	Patrick, C. M.

Original Question put, and agreed to.