HC Deb 07 July 1938 vol 338 cc787-94

Lords Amendment: In page 88, line 4, at the beginning, insert: 1. After subsection (1) of section five there shall be inserted the following new subsection: (1A) If it appears to the Board of Trade to be expedient that more than one district committee of investigation should be constituted for any district with a view to the investigation of complaints relating to different matters or to different localities by different committees, two or more such committees may be constituted therefor and shall be charged respectively with the duty of investigating any complaint with respect to the operation of the district scheme for that district made in relation to such matters or to such localities as the Board may direct.

Mr. Speaker

This Amendment raises a question of Privilege.

Captain Crookshank

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

We are now on that part of the Bill which deals with committees of investigation which investigate complaints. It was considered in another place that it might be desirable to increase, possibly in some areas—not in all areas—the committees of investigation. At present it is laid down that there should be one for every district. Hon. Members know that the Midlands is a very large district and there might be several complaints. In order to save delay they should be dealt with more expeditiously. This provision gives power, if deemed necessary, to appoint more committees.

Question put, and agreed to.—[Special Entry.]

Lords Amendment: In page 89, line 6, at the end, insert: 3. At the end of subsection (5) of section five the following words shall be added— 'and the complainant also shall furnish the committee with such returns, accounts and other information as the committee considers relevant to the investigation.'

Captain Crookshank

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House may recollect that under the Act of 1930, Section 5, the committee of investigation may require such returns and accounts as they think relevant to the investigation. The committee can call upon the colliery interests for their accounts and figures. On the other hand, they have no power to ask those who complain to give the figures which might justify, in the view of the committee, their case. In certain cases we have had an expression of grievance on the part of the coal side that they have to give all this information to the committee, and that the people who complain are not asked questions. I think, on the whole, it is a reasonable proposition.

1.11 a.m.

Sir S. Cripps

This seems to me a very dangerous Amendment. I can understand the point which the hon. Member made, but, unfortunately, the words of this Amendment are very wide, and are likely gravely to embarrass a complainant. The words do not say that they are to be his returns and accounts. Suppose he makes a complaint regarding a particular quality or class of coal, he may be asked for details of that complaint by the committee, who may say that unless he furnishes these proposals, they will not go on with the complaint. That may put the complainant in the difficult position of being refused a hearing unless he complies with the request of the committee to furnish accounts and other information, which he might be wholly unable to obtain. This is a very complicated matter, and he may not be able to give particulars until after discovery, and the committee may say that they will not continue with the investigation until after they obtained particulars which might, in fact, defeat the complaint. It would be possible to attain the object by using other words, but the words used here are far too wide to cover the point which the hon. Member has in mind. The danger is that the complainant will be asked to give information as regards his complaint which he will not be able to do, and then the committee will be able to say that,

having failed to give the information they cannot proceed with the investigation. We feel, therefore, that it is far too dangerous to allow this to go forward.

1.13 a.m.

Captain Crookshank

I am sorry to disagree with the hon. and learned Gentleman in this matter. I think the committees of investigation exist to be a protection to the consumer, and under the Bill the chairman is a legal chairman, and you have on the committee representatives of both sides of the industry. The whole function is to protect the complainant, and it seems to me rather farfetched that the committee should have the duty to refuse to hear a case by demanding information which exhypothesi the complainant could not provide.

Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

The House divided: Ayes, 138; Noes, 79.

Division No. 289.] AYES. [1.16 a.m.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Eastwood, J. F. Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees)
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Ellis, Sir G. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Emmott, C. E. G. C. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.
Apsley, Lord Entwistle, Sir C. F. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)
Aske, Sir R. W. Errington, E. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) Moreing, A. C.
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Everard, W. L. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. Fox, Sir G. W. G. Nicholson, G. (Farnham)
Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Nicolson, Hon. H. G.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Furness, S. N. Palmer, G. E. H.
Bird, Sir R. B. Fyfe, D. P. M. Patrick, C. M.
Bossom, A. C. Gledhill, G. Peake,O.
Boulton, W. W. Gluckstein, L. H. Procter, Major H. A.
Boyce, H. Leslie Goldie, N. B. Radford, E. A.
Bracken, B. Gower, Sir R. V. Ramsbotham, H.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Grant-Ferris, R. Rankin, Sir R.
Broadbridge, Sir G. T. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Butcher, H. W. Gridley, Sir A. B. Rayner, Major R. H.
Cartland, J. R. H. Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Cary, R. A. Gunston, Capt. Sir D. W. Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Castlereagh, Viscount Hambro, A. V. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Hannah, I. C. Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Channon, H. Haslam, Henry (Horncastle) Ropner, Colonel L.
Clarke, Colonel R. S. (E. Grinstead) Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Royds, Admiral Sir P. M. R.
Clydesdale, Marquess of Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Salmon, Sir I.
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Salt, E. W.
Colville. Rt. Hon. John Higgs, W. F. Samuel, M. R. A.
Conant, Captain R. J. E. Holdsworth, H. Selley, H. R.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Holmes, J. S. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. Horsbrugh, Florence Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich)
Cox, H. B. Trevor Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Somervell, Rt. Hon. Sir Donald
Craven-Ellis, W. Hulbert, N. J. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Joel, D. J. B. Spears, Brigadier-General E. L.
Crossley, A. C. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Spens, W. P.
De la Bèra, R. Latham, Sir P. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
Dixon, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Stourton, Major Hon. J. J.
Doland, G. F. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Donner, P. W. Loftus, P. C. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. M'Connell, Sir J. Tasker, Sir R. I.
Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) McCorquodale, M. S. Tate, Mavis C.
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Touche, G. C.
Duncan, J. A. L. McKie, J. H. Walker-Smith, Sir J.
Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) Wragg, H.
Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Wright, Wing-Commander J. A. C.
Watt, Major G. S. Harvie Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Wayland, Sir W. A Womersley, Sir W. J. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Wells, Sir Sydney Wood, Hon. C. I. C. Mr. Munro and Major Sir James Edmondson.
NOES.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Guest, Dr. L. H. (Islington, N.) Paling, W.
Adams, D. (Consett) Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Parkinson, J. A.
Adamson, W. M. Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Poole, C. C.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Hayday, A. Price, M. P.
Banfield, J. W. Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Pritt, D. N.
Barnes, A. J. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Ridley, G.
Barr, J. Hollins, A. Ritson, J.
Batey, J. Jagger, J. Silkin, L.
Bellenger, F. J. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Silverman, S. S.
Bromfield, W. Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) Simpson, F. B.
Burke, W. A. John, W. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Collindridge, F. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Smith, E. (Stoke)
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Smith, T. (Normanton)
Daggar, G. Kelly, W. T. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Dalton, H. Kirby, B. V. Stokes, R. R.
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Lawson, J. J. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Leach, W. Thurtle, E.
Dobbie, W. Lee, F. Tinker, J. J.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) Lunn, W. Tomlinson, G.
Ede, J. C. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Watkins, F. C.
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) McEntee, V. La T. Wilkinson, Ellen
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. MacLaren, A. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Frankel, D. Marshall, F. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Milner, Major J. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Gibson, R. (Greenock) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Grenfell, D. R. Noel-Baker, P. J.
Groves, T. E. Oliver, G. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Mr. Mathers and Mr. Anderson.

Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.

Subsequent Lords Amendments to page 90, line 39, agreed to.

Lords Amendment: In page 90, line 44, at the end, insert: or where the appointment is of the chairman of a district committee of investigation for a district in Scotland, after consultation with the Lord Advocate.

Captain Crookshank

I beg to move, "That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said Amendment."

This is really formal. The reason is that the chairman is appointed after consultation with the Lord Chancellor, and it appears in the case of Scotland more proper that the Lord Advocate should be consulted.

1.24 a.m.

Mr. Davidson

I should like to warn the hon. and gallant Gentleman that this question is one on which it would delight me very much to make a speech for about an hour and a half on the subject of Scottish self-government. However, I will spare hon. Members that calamity. I am glad that in another place they recognize the right and wisdom of the Scottish people and the Scottish representatives to elect their own particular chairmen of district committees, and as this will probably be the last word I shall speak on this Bill, may I say that

I feel this is a decided improvement. I know that the chief difficulties of the Commission and these committees will be the lack of finance, because of the operation of the Bill as coming from another place, and I believe that what has happened in the past can happen in the future. If in order to save this Bill the Lord Advocate and his appointee have to put their heads together, they will establish, perhaps, a flag day in Scotland to raise the finance to save the Bill from the fate that the other place and the Government have brought upon it.

1.28 a.m.

Sir S. Cripps

I understand there is something rather mystic about the hour of half-past one as far as the Bill is concerned, and I therefore propose, if I may, to detain the House until that time arrives. This Amendment is putting into the hands of the Lord Advocate the appointment of the chairman of a district committee of investigation for a district in Scotland. The similar appointment in Great Britain is to be made by the Lord Chancellor, and, of course, the position of the Lord Chancellor with regard to this country and the Lord Advocate as regards Scotland are very different positions. And one rather wonders why the appointment in Scotland is not given to someone in a position more equal to that of the Lord Chancellor in this country. On other occasions in the course of the Bill where an appointment has been made by the Lord Chancellor in this country, it has been made by the Senior Judge of the Court of Session in Scotland, and one would have thought that a more true analogy of the position of the Lord Chancellor as head of the judiciary in Great Britain. The Lord Advocate, although he occupies a very high office is only comparable with the Attorney-General.

I cannot imagine anybody suggesting that the Attorney-General should appoint the chairman of a district committee under this Bill, and I am quite sure that if anybody had, it would have been at once said by those on the other side, "How dangerous if you had a Labour Attorney-General. Think of the terrible people he must appoint, so protect yourselves for someone who must be appointed if Labour were elevated to office." The same argument would apply as regards the Lord Advocate, because he would be in much the same position as the Attorney-General. Those are the observations which I desire to lay before the House on this very important subject as a constitutional problem, but we feel that on the whole it will perhaps be satisfactory to save the House, at the hour we have now reached, for dividing.

Subsequent Lords Amendment, in page 90, line 45, agreed to.

Committee appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to certain of their Amendments to the Bill.

Committee nominated of, Mr. Stanley, Captain Crookshank, Captain Briscoe, Sir Stafford Cripps, and Mr. Paling.

Three to be the quorum.—[Mr. Stanley.]

To withdraw immediately.

Reasons for disagreeing to certain of the Lords Amendments reported, and agreed to.

To be communicated to the Lords.—[Mr. Stanley.]