HC Deb 05 July 1938 vol 338 cc233-8

5.o p.m.

Mr. Westwood

I beg to move, in page 1.4, line 14, to leave out "being," and to insert "or."

This Amendment deals with a principle which ought to be determined by the Committee. Under the Bill we are dealing not only with fire fighting services but with the problem of pensions as applied to the men in those services. For the purposes of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, and this Bill the expression "fire brigade duties" includes any of the duties which are set out in Sub-section (1) of this Clause. The last paragraph says: other duties ancillary to or connected with fire brigade purposes, being duties carried out on the direction of the fire authority. I am moving to substitute the word "or" for "being" in this paragraph. A fire brigade service, particularly so far as the smaller authorities are concerned, is a standby emergency service. In the majority of cases, although the men are employed as permanent firemen, there are times when there are no fire duties to perform, and no equipment to repair, and it is necessary, in the interests of economy and of the efficiency of the men, that they should have something practical and useful to do. In some instances local authorities which are also fire authorities direct that the permanent firemen shall be engaged upon other duties. The point of my Amendment is to bring the maximum number of men who are fully employed in the different directions set out in this Clause within the scope of the superannuation scheme provided under the 1925Act. Thesucceeding Amendments which are to be moved by the Home Secretary go a long way towards improving the conditions of those who are engaged full time on fire fighting services, and they try within certain limits to meet the case that was put in Com- mitee upstairs and which the Home Secretary promised to go into.

We on this side of the Committee are not yet satisfied that everything has been done that ought to be done to guarantee the best superannuation scheme for those engaged on fire fighting work. There are local authorities which have superannuation schemes that embrace them, but the pension is forty-sixtieths for each year of service with a retiring age of 65. Under the Fire Brigade Pensions Act it is thirty-sixtieths for each year of service with a retiring age of 55. That is a big improvement for the employes. It is possible that my Amendment may go a little too far and bring in certain individuals that it is not my intention to bring under the Bill, but I think I have, in consultations with the other side, proved that the Clause does not go as far as seems to be the intention of the Government itself. We have been in communication with hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I find that there is a doubt that some cases which would not be regarded as legitimate cases would fall within the Clause, but that both sides would like to see the Clause drafted in such a way as to meet the purpose we all have, so that everybody who should he in the Clause is included. There is, therefore, no difference in principle between the Government and Members on this side. It is a question of getting the proper drafting in order to bring the maximum number of men within the superannuation provided by the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925.

5.7 p.m.

Sir S. Hoare

I agree with the hon. Member that there is no difference in principle between us on this question. Like him, we are anxious to bring into the scope of the Pension Acts cases of bona fide firemen which were not provided for in the Clause as it stood. We were under the impression that the Amendments that appear in my name brought within the net every possible fireman who could reasonably be included, whatever may have been the actual conditions of his service in a particular area. These Amendments go a long way, as the hon. Member himself said, to remove the doubts that were in the minds of certain hon. Members in Committee upstairs. There is no difference between us, however, in that we wish to get all these people into the net, and I am prepared to give the undertaking that I will look into the question again and see whether under the Amendments which I shall propose we leave anybody out. If we leave out any bona fide cases, I will find a form of words to be introduced in another place.

I have to make a further reservation. The English local authorities have so far approved our proposals, and I shall have to consult them again. I have not had time to consult them because the hon. Member's Amendment has not been on the Paper sufficiently long to allow for consultations of this kind. His Amendment goes too far because the phrase "or duties carried out on the direction of the fire authority," raise the possibility of confusion. A fire authority and a local authority will in many cases be one and the same, and the draftsman tells me that the hon. Member's words might cover a direction given by a council to any individual, other than a fireman. We have to make the point clear in drafting that it is the fire service with which we are dealing in particular, and that it is these firemen whom we have in mind. On that account the hon. Member's wording is not sufficiently precise. I will look into the question again and consult the English municipal authorities, and I see no reason why, if our Amendments do not bring in all the individuals whom we wish to bring in, we should not get a comprehensive Amendment moved in another place to remove any possible doubts.

Mr. Westwood

With that explanation I will not press the Amendment, but before asking leave to withdraw it, may I explain that there is no intention on this side of the Committee merely to put down Amendments the night before in order to place the Government or anyone else in a difficulty? There is an honourable understanding that, certain pledges having been given, the Government would try to meet the claim that was made in Committee; and until the Government's Amendments were on the Order Paper there was no justification for cluttering up the Order Paper with Amendments that would be unnecessary if the Government's Amendments met the requirements and aspirations of Members on this side of the Committee. That is the reason my Amendment was put down late.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

5.12 p.m.

Sir S. Hoare

I beg to move, in page 14, line 20, after "Act," to insert: not being a person to whom the next following Sub-section applies. This Amendment and the following Amendments appear very complicated, but they do no more than bring into the scope of the Superannuation Acts certain classes and individuals who, owing to inadvertence, have hitherto been left out. If the Committee want detailed explanations as to these individuals and classes, I am prepared to give them, but, as the hon. Member for Stirling and Falkirk (Mr. Westwood) has said, they all go to improve the Bill.

Mr. Westwood

These Amendments try as far as possible to fulfil the promises that were made in Committee upstairs. They are a vast improvement on the original proposals in the Bill and will bring a far larger number of employés in the fire-fighting services within the scope of the pensions schemes. We accept them in the spirit in which they are moved, namely, the spirit of seeking to improve what in the beginning was a very bad Bill, and a Bill which was not clearly thought out.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 14, line 22, leave out from "Act," to "the," in line 23, and insert "during which he was treated as subject to."

In line 26, at the end, add: (3) Where any person, who at the passing of this Act holds a post by virtue of which he is or is being treated as subject to the Local Government and other Officers' Superannuation Act, 1922 (hereinafter referred to as 'the Act of 1922'), or to a local Act scheme, becomes by virtue of this Section a professional fireman, the fire authority shall give him written notice of the effect of this Section, and if within one month after receiving that notice he gives written notice to the fire authority that he desires that the provisions of the Act of 1922 or of the local Act scheme, as the case may be, should continue to apply to him the said provisions shall continue to apply to him accordingly in lieu of the provisions of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925. (4) If any such person as aforesaid does not give a written notice under the last foregoing Sub-section the provisions of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, shall apply to him in lieu of the provisions of the Act of 1922 or of the local Act scheme, as the case may be, and—

  1. (a) account shall be taken for the purposes of the Fire Brigades Pensions Act, 1925, in such manner as may be prescribed by regulations made by the Minister of Health, of his previous service with any local authority;
  2. (b) a transfer value ascertained in accordance with the provisions of the Local Government Officers' Superannuation (Transfer Value) Rules, 1930, shall be paid out of the superannuation fund maintained under the Act of 1922, or under the local Act scheme, as the case may be, to the fire brigade pension fund or, if there is no such fund, to the general rate fund of the borough or district; and
  3. (c) for the purposes of any return or application of his rateable deductions under Section eighteen of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, there shall be included in the aggregate amount of his rateable deductions so much of the said transfer value as represents contributions or additional contributory payments paid or made by him under the Act of 1922 or the local Act scheme.
(5) At the end of paragraph 2 of Part 11 of the First Schedule to the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937 (which specifies persons who shall not become contributory employees or local Act contributors within the meaning of that Act), there shall he added the words 'not being a fireman who has given a written notice under Subsection (2) of Section twenty-four of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, or under Subsection (3) of Section sixteen of the Fire Brigades Act, 1938.' (6) Any person who at the passing of this Act is in the service of a local authority as respects whom the Act of 1922 is in operation, or of a local authority administering a local Act scheme, and is being treated as subject to the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, but is not a professional fireman, shall by virtue of this Sub-section—
  1. (a) be deemed to hold a post by virtue of which he is subject to the Act of 1922, or the local Act scheme, as the case may be; and
  2. (b) be entitled to reckon any period of service during which he was treated as subject to the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, as contributing service for the purposes of the Act of 1922, or the local Act scheme, as the case may be, and any deductions made from his pay during such a period shall be deemed to be contributions for all purposes of the Act of 1922 or the local Act scheme; and
the authority shall transfer from the fire brigade pension fund or, if there is no such fund, the general rate and of the borough or district to the superannuation fund maintained under the Act of 1922, or the local Act scheme, as the case may be, an amount equal to twice the aggregate amount of the said deductions. (7) All regulations made by the Minister of Health under this Section shall be laid as soon as may be before Parliament, and if either House within the next twenty-eight days on which that House has sat after any regulation has been laid before it, resolves that the regulation be annulled, the regulation shall be of no effect, but without prejudice to the validity of anything done in the meantime thereunder or to the making of a new regulation. (8) In this Section the expression 'additional contributory payment' has the same meaning as in the Local Government Superannuation Act, 1937, and the expression 'local Act scheme' means a superannuation scheme administered by a local authority under a local Act."—[Sir S. Hoare.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.