ARMY COUNCIL. (Hansard, 5 July 1938)

§ 4. Mr. Ede
asked the Secretary of State for War whether he will give the date, time, and place of the meeting of the Army Council which decided to set up the Court of Inquiry into the suspected leakage of confidential information; the names of those present; and the minute or other record of the action taken at the meeting?

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
It has not been the practice of the House to make proceedings of the Army Council the subject of detailed question and answer. In the circumstances, I am sure the House will not expect me to add anything to the statement which I made on Thursday last.

§ Mr. Ede
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether his Noble Friend the Under-Secretary or his hon. Friend the Financial Secretary were present at the meeting?

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether it is in accordance with the custom of this House that such detailed questions should be put?

§ Mr. Speaker
As regards the Army Council, I have never known such questions to be asked before.

§ Mr. Ede
May I submit to you that I have specifically put questions with regard to two civilian members of the council who are members of the Government and whose salaries are borne on the Army Votes as members of the Government, and I suggest that I am entitled to have an answer to that question. I am quite prepared to accept for this occasion the answer given by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the military members of the Council.

§ Mr. Dalton
May I submit, upon the question which the Secretary of State for War has raised, that although the general rule may be what you, Sir, have indicated, yet in this particular case there has been a pronouncement that a breach of the Privileges of this House has been committed, and this question is designed 151 to elucidate some part of the details surrounding this breach of Privilege, and that, therefore, in this case my hon. Friend stands upon strong ground in putting this question?

Captain Arthur Evans
In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman has pointed out to the House that the question relates to specific circumstances which are at the moment under review by a Select Committee of this House, surely it would be better that we should await the findings of that Committee before pronouncing judgment?

§ Mr. Speaker
I should not like to call it a ruling, but though I have never known this question to be asked, I see nothing irregular in asking whether members of the Government were present at this Council.

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
With reference to the point raised by the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Mr. Dalton), the House has not found that the Army Council committed any breach of Privilege. With regard to the Army Council in general, the constitutional position is that I accept full responsibility for its acts, and any advice tendered to me by the Army Council is tendered under the usual terms on which advice is tendered by a body of that kind, whether the Board of Admiralty, the Army Council or the Cabinet, and I do not think it is fair to members of that Council that I should be asked whether they were present, or what they said.

§ Mr. Attlee
In view of the fact that the right hon. Gentleman did state that this action was taken by the Army Council, and there is no question asked about what was said, can he not state whether the other Ministerial members of the Army Council were present? What is the objection to answering that question?

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
I accept full responsibility for the acts of the Army Council.

§ Mr. Attlee
What we want to know is whether the other members whose salaries are borne on the Votes were present and did their duty as members of the Army Council.

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
The right hon. Member may accept as true that this was a decision of the Army Council, and that I bear full responsibility for it, and that is all I can say.

§ Sir Percy Harris
Is it not the case that the Army Council cannot function except civilian members are present to form a Council?

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
The hon. Member is in error, if he will allow me to say so. That is not the case.

§ Mr. Ede
Seeing that the right hon. Gentleman told us the other day that he himself was not present, I should like to press him as to whether either of the two other civilian members of the Council was present?

§ Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte
Is not this question put merely in order to satisfy idle curiosity?

§ Mr. Attlee
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman this question: If he was not present, is it not clearly a matter on which it would be advisable to know that members of the Army Council, who, after all, have no knowledge of this procedure, had present with them their Ministerial colleagues to advise them on this point?

§ Mr. Hore-Belisha
I have said that I accept full responsibility for the actions of the Council, and I do not wish to commit a breach of custom whereby I mention individual names of members and say whether they were present or what was said. It was a decision of the Army Council in proper form, and for that I accept full responsibility.

§ Mr. Ede
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that at the earliest opportunity I shall raise the matter on the Adjournment.