SPAIN. (Hansard, 13 April 1938)

§ 1 and 2. Mr. Ede
asked the Prime Minister (1) what is His Majesty's Government's estimate of the numbers of men of other than Spanish nationality who have served in or with the armed forces of the Spanish Government and the insurgents, respectively; and what proportion they bear in each case to the total force;
(2) what is His Majesty's Government's estimate of the number of men enrolled in the armed forces of governments outside Spain who have served in or with the armed forces of the Spanish Government and the insurgents, respectively; and what proportion they bear in each case to the total force?

§ The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler)
I would remind the hon. Member that under the present scheme of the Non-Intervention Committee commissions are to be sent to Spain for the purpose of making such estimates, and in advance of that information I have no detailed material upon which to base a statement.

§ Mr. Ede
When does the hon. Member anticipate that these commissions will leave for Spain?

§ Mr. Butler
The hon. Member will be aware that the Non-Intervention Committee is discussing this matter, and I hope that further progress will be made.

§ Mr. Ede
If I put down a question for the day after the House resumes after the Easter Recess will the hon. Member be able to give me an answer?

§ Mr. Butler
I do not know if progress will be made by that date.

§ 3. Mr. Ede
asked the Prime Minister whether His Majesty's Government have made representations to any Power, and, if so, to whom, with regard to military works carried out and guns placed in the neighbourhood of Gibraltar; and, if not, whether it is contemplated that such representations shall be made?

§ Mr. Butler
The answer to both parts of the question is in the negative. His Majesty' s Government, however, are carefully watching the situation. I would, in this connexion, refer the hon. Member to a statement made on 27th July last by my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence to the effect that after carefully considering the matter, His Majesty's Government did not consider there was any reason for raising the question. I am not aware of any alteration in the situation since then which would justify a change of attitude on the part of His Majesty's Government.

§ Mr. Ede
Has the hon. Member any information about anything?

§ Mr. Wedgwood Benn
Is there any new information except that which was given by the Under-Secretary and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence on the occasion referred to?

§ Mr. Butler
Not on this particular subject.

Duchess of Atholl
Has the hon. Member seen the statement to which reference was made in another place, showing that there has been a considerable increase of the fortifications in various places since the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence made his statement last July?

§ Mr. Butler
I have considered all these points and I have given an answer which, I think, represents the position of the Government.

§ 5. Mr. Noel-Baker
asked the Prime Minister whether, in the event of belligerent rights being granted to General Franco's forces, the Nyon control system will be continued?

§ Mr. Butler
In the view of His Majesty's Government the reasons for the maintenance of the Nyon patrols are quite independent of the question of the grant or withholding of belligerent rights.

§ Mr. Noel-Baker
Do I understand that we are going to grant belligerent rights to people whom we regard as pirates?

8. Duchess of Atholl
asked the Prime Minister whether, in view of the transfer of destroyers from the Italian Navy to General Franco's and the fact that such transfers are forbidden under the London Treaty of 1930, to which Italy is a party, he will make it a condition of any agreement with Italy that such destroyers and any other ships so transferred shall be at once recalled to the Italian Navy?

§ Mr. Butler
The London Naval Treaty of 1930, to which Italy was a party, expired on 31st December, 1936. Italy is not a party to the Naval Treaty signed in London on 25th March, 1936, and is. therefore, not bound by Article 22 of that Treaty which prohibits the transfer of vessels of war to the navies of other Powers.

Duchess of Atholl
Even if Italy was not a party to the Treaty, does the hon. Member not consider it a very serious thing if we take no notice of an admitted transfer of ships from the Italian Navy to the Spanish insurgent navy?

9. Duchess of Atholl
asked the Prime Minister whether all persons in the employment of His Majesty's Government at ports in Spain or the Spanish possessions and all observers under the Non-Intervention Committee have been instructed to report any arrivals of Italian war personnel or material at such ports; if so, on what date or dates such instructions were sent; and will he state the numbers of such persons and observers who have reported the arrival of such personnel or material in such a port since 21st February, the number who have reported no arrivals, and the number who made no report, giving the place where stationed in each case?

§ Mr. Butler
As regards persons in the employment of His Majesty's Government, it would clearly be impossible for them to carry out their duties in any part of Spain in present conditions if the nature of confidential instructions sent to them or of reports received from them were made public, and I am not, therefore, prepared to give details of the kind indicated in the question. The international observers report to the Non-Intervention Board by whom they are employed.

Duchess of Atholl
If it is so difficult for consuls to send information, is the hon. Member sure that there is no foundation—as he said to me last week in reply to a question—for the statement that Italian vessels have been gathering considerable war material in various ports in Spain since 21st February?

§ Mr. Butler
I never said that it was difficult for consuls to send information. I said that it was impossible to publish confidential instructions to them or the reports received from them.

§ Mr. T. Williams
Have they been instructed not to send in any reports?

17. Mr. J. J. Davidson
asked the Prime Minister whether he has received any reports or accounts of the recent insurgent advance in Catalonia from His Majesty's military attachés or representatives there?

§ Mr. Butler
Yes, Sir.

Mr. Davidson
In those accounts, is any report given with regard to the war material used on either side?

§ Mr. Butler
The hon. Gentleman will realise that much of the information contained in these reports is inevitably of a confidential nature. It is not possible to give publicity to that confidential information.

Mr. Davidson
Do the Government consider information with regard to increased war material on one side or the other as being confidential, and further, how does the Prime Minister expect the House to come to any decision with regard to an agreement if such information is withheld from it?

§ Mr. Butler
It would be quite without precedent to publish reports of military attachés

Mr. Davidson rose
——

§ Mr. Speaker
The Minister has replied to the question.

Mr. Davidson
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply, I beg to give notice that I intend to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

18. Mr. Davidson
asked the Prime Minister the total number of Italian troops and the quantity of war material withdrawn from Spain since the inception of the British-Italian talks?

§ Mr. Butler
I regret that I have no information to show whether any such withdrawal has taken place, or, if so, in what quantities.

Mr. Davidson
Have the Government taken any measures to ascertain whether, in the event of an agreement being arrived at, withdrawal will take place or not?

§ Mr. Butler
The hon. Gentleman will remember that, as the Prime Minister has said, it was never demanded or expected of the Italian Government that they should effect unilateral withdrawal.

§ 20. Mr. Riley
asked the Prime Minister whether any of His Majesty's representatives in Spain have reported the arrival in Spain of Italian or German aeroplanes, pilots, or other military categories, or quantities of munitions from either Germany or Italy, since 1st March, 1938?

§ Mr. Butler
I have nothing to add to the statement which I made in the Debate on the Adjournment on 11th April.

§ Mr. Riley
May I ask what it is that His Majesty's representatives do in Spain? Do they make reports about these matters?

§ Mr. Gallacher
Why do we not get some information?

26. Miss Rathbone
asked the Prime Minister whether the Non-Intervention Committee has accepted the principle that no breaches of non-intervention should be reported to it unless they can be shown to have materially affected the position in Spain; and whether the same principle was understood by His Majesty's Government to apply to the understanding between them and the Italian Government that the Italian forces fighting in Spain should not be augmented while 1090 the Anglo-Italian conversations were proceeding?

§ Mr. Butler
The conditions governing the submission of alleged breaches of the Non-Intervention Agreement to the Non-Intervention Committee, were explained on 30th March in my reply to a question by the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland). As regards the second half of the question, I would refer the hon. Lady to the statement made by the Prime Minister on 24th March.

Miss Rathbone
Was not the reply given by the Prime Minister on Monday to questions by various hon. Members related to recent arrivals of Italian material in Spain, and does not his answer alter the conditions?

§ Mr. H. G. Williams
On a point of Order. Is it in order for an hon. Member to ask supplementary questions in regard to a matter which another hon. Member has given notice that he intends to raise on the Adjournment?

§ Mr. Speaker
It is the general practice that when notice is given by an hon. Member that he intends to raise a question on the Adjournment, no further questions are asked concerning it.

Miss Rathbone
May I call your attention, Mr. Speaker, to the fact that it is not the same question? I am now referring to the answer of the Prime Minister on Monday that he had no reason to believe that recent importations of Italian and German material into Spain had materially altered that position. Is not that laying down the principle that breaches of non-intervention are only taken account of when they materially alter the position?

§ Mr. Gallacher
On a point of Order. Notice has been given to raise the question of war material going into Spain. The hon. Lady raised a question as to the principles guiding the decisions of the Non-Intervention Committee. I ask how it is possible, in the words of the prize fool of this House, to connect those two questions?