27. Mr. De la Bèreasked the Minister of Agriculture whether he can assure the House that the Government are not contemplating any compulsory measure for the pasteurisation of milk throughout this country?
§ The Minister of Agriculture (Mr. W. S. Morrison)I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 1st November to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Ayr Burghs (Sir T. Moore).
§ 34. Sir Henry Morris-Jonesasked the Minister of Agriculture whether, in the proposed legislation on milk production and distribution, he will consider giving permanent exemption from compulsory pasteurisation in the case of the producer-retailer selling milk from one herd?
§ Mr. MorrisonAs stated in paragraph 16 of the White Paper on Milk Policy issued in July last, it is proposed that the operation of any Order making compulsory the efficient pasteurisation of milk sold by retail shall be deferred for two years after the Order is made, that milk retailed from dairies where the milk is derived from a single herd shall be exempt for three years from the date of operation of the Order, and that milk from tuberculin tested herds shall be exempt from its scope. I am always ready to consider suggestions, but as my hon. Friend will appreciate, the Government's proposals are expressly designed to afford an adequate opportunity for those concerned to make any adjustments that may be required to meet the new conditions.
§ Sir H. Morris-JonesWill the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that it is very difficult for small farmers, especially in Wales, to procure the necessary apparatus for pasteruisation, and is it not the fact that a very large volume of British opinion will never be completely in favour of pasteurisation?
§ Mr. MorrisonIf the hon. Member will read the White Paper he will see that the initiative for any Order to make the pasteurisation of milk compulsory must emanate from the local authority, and if the hon. Member's contention is right that a large part of the people are opposed to pasteurisation, then I appreciate that only a few of these applications are likely to be made. The Government's policy is so designed that if a local authority does demand a power of compulsory pasteurisation those concerned will have adequate time in which to make the necessary arrangements and adjustments.
§ Mr. T. WilliamsWill the right hon. Gentleman make no promise which will prevent him insisting on more efficient and cheaper distribution?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe question of distribution is dealt with in the White Paper, and I shall be careful, as far as I can, to make no promise which will prevent me from discharging my duty to the House.
Mr. De la BèreWill the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that pasteurisation is not a panacea for all ills?
§ 38. Mr. Thorneasked the Minister of Agriculture how many defaulters were lined in September by the Milk Board for selling milk wholesale without a contract; for rendering false returns; for failing to furnish information and returns; and what were the monetary penalties in each section?
§ Mr. MorrisonFrom information published by the Milk Marketing Board, it appears that during September, 1937, penalties amounting to £987 were imposed on 13 registered producers for selling milk by wholesale without a contract. Penalties amounting to £644 were imposed on 27 registered producers for rendering false returns, and penalties amounting to £68 on 13 registered producers for failing to furnish information and returns.
§ 39. Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Minister of Agriculture what was the total production of milk in England and Wales and in Scotland for each of the years 1931 to 1936, and what are the comparable figures for the first nine months of 1937; and whether he foresees an increase or a decrease in the total production of milk in the course of the next year?
§ Mr. MorrisonWith my hon. Friend's permission I am circulating in the OFFICIAL REPORT a table showing the information he desires for the years 1931 to 1936 with estimates for the period from January to September this year. With regard to the last part of the question, the production of milk is influenced by so many factors that I would rather not attempt any forecast of future supplies.
Mr. StewartCan the right hon. Gentleman give the House the general effect of these figures so as to confirm whether there has been a considerable fall in the production of milk in recent years?
§ Mr. MorrisonPerhaps the hon. Member will look at the figures. I shall be glad to answer any other questions if he will give me notice.
§ Mr. LeachCan the right hon. Gentleman say whether the result of his policy will be a rise or fall in prices?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe Government's policy is designed to safeguard the interests of the consumers.
§ Following is the table:
| ESTIMATED TOTAL MILK PRODUCTION, excluding Milk Fed to Livestock, in England and Wales and in Scotland in the years 1931 to 1937. | |||
| (Millions of gallons.) | |||
| England and Wales. | Scotland. | ||
| 1931 | … | 1,286 | 163 |
| 1932 | … | 1,330 | 166 |
| 1933 | … | 1,366 | 170 |
| 1934 | … | 1,391 | 171 |
| 1935 | … | 1,408 | 174 |
| 1936 | … | 1,413 | 178 |
| 1937 (nine months) | … | 1,063 | 140 |
§ 40. Mr. Henderson Stewartasked the Minister of Agriculture Whether he is aware that manufacturers of condensed milk and chocolate, who give employment to many workpeople in this country, are unable to obtain adequate supplies of milk; that the shortage, if continued, will necessitate the importation of foreign supplies of condensed milk and chocolate; and what steps he is taking to deal with the matter?
§ Mr. MorrisonThe Milk Marketing Board have informed me that they have no knowledge of any manufacturer of condensed milk or chocolate who is unable at the present time to obtain adequate supplies of milk. If my hon. Friend will supply me with particulars of the cases he has in mind I shall be glad to pass the information to the board.
§ Mr. T. JohnstonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are many thousands of poor consumers in this country who are unable to obtain adequate supplies of milk, and is he satisfied that it is the right policy that chocolate manufacturers should get milk at 9d. and the poor consumers be compelled to pay 2s.?
§ Mr. MorrisonThat raises a very much wider question of policy. In the first place, if the right hon. Gentleman will look at the White Paper to which I have already referred, he will see that there the Government adumbrates proposals to render milk available to those whose necessities make them incapable of getting it; and secondly, on the question of chocolate manufacturers, I think the right hon. Gentleman himself was very eloquent on the subject when he was at the Ministry of Agriculture.
§ Mr. JohnstonWith regard to the last part of the right hon. Gentleman's supplementary answer. Is he not aware that the policy of the then Government, to which he referred, was to provide adequate supplies for poor consumers first?
§ Mr. MorrisonThat may have been the policy, but I am not aware that it was executed.
§ 42. Mr. W. Robertsasked the Minister of Agriculture what is the highest price per gallon of milk used for making butter and cheese that could he secured in the most favourable event by the Milk Marketing Board through the working of the price insurance plan which forms part of his milk policy; and what is the lowest figure below which the price of such milk is calculated not to fall under this guarantee?
§ Mr. MorrisonNothing in the Government's proposals would impose an upper limit on the price per gallon of milk used for making butter and cheese which could be obtained by the Milk Marketing Board. The answer to the last part of the question depends on a number of factors and assumptions, and until the White Paper proposals are clothed in detail, any such calculation as the hon. Member suggests might be misleading.
§ Mr. RobertsWhen does the right hon. Gentleman think it will be possible to give an answer to the second part of the question?
§ Mr. MorrisonThere will always be certain assumptions depending on conditions which are quite outside the Government's proposals. There are bound to be different answers to the question which the hon. Member asks. I think an approach to a solution might be found when the Bill itself is produced.