§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
§ 7.10 p.m.
§ Mr. TinkerI expected that we would have had some kind of explanation from the Front Bench. However, I will give a lead to it. This Bill has been before the House since November last and has been discussed on various occasions. Many attempts have been made to get it through, and to-day we have the Third Reading. Once more an attempt will be made to get it through quietly. We have had no explanation and there is nothing on the face of the Bill to say what it means. The House should know for what it is voting. The Bill will increase the salaries of certain persons who are at present fairly well paid. It takes them to a very high figure. There are certain Members on this side who might argue that abilities such as these people possess cannot be too highly paid, but in this modern world we have to have some kind of comparison.
The salaries of these judges and commissioners are to be increased from £2,000 to £2,300, and from £1,600 to £2,000. I dare say the argument now is that with the general increase of salaries all round these people are entitled to it also, but regard must be had to other kinds of people. The argument put forward is that if you want good men you have to pay for them. Another argument is that their duties have increased so much that they must be paid more. Men in their positions will give equal service without any question of increased pay. To be a judge in this land is one of the highest positions which can be attained in giving service to the people. I dare say that on our side when we have the giving of judgeships many of my hon. Friends who are now getting fairly nice salaries will in the autumn of their days be glad to accept 504 a position of that kind and will be glad to look on it as a most honourable occupation, enabling them to lend their experience and dignity to the highest position in the land. There would be no question in their minds as to whether they would receive £3,000 or £5,000. Some moderate kind of payment and the honour of their position would be enough.
Roughly, 100 people will get this £300 a year rise. There will be additional superannuation also. It will mean a total cost of £35,000 a year, and in these days of handing out money very easily that would not appear to be a very large figure. My point is to draw some kind of comparison. The whole of that money will have to be found out of the general taxation of the country, and many of the people who will be called on to bear this extra burden of taxation in order to provide the £35,000 are themselves in poor circumstances. This afternoon a question was put to the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to whether anything could be done to raise the low pensions of old age pensioners, and what the cost would be. The reply was that the cost would be so prohibitive that it was impossible. Old age pensioners who are receiving 10s. a week will think it out of all reason that we should be considering the payment of £300 a year more to certain other people without any demur at all. I am asking that we should have some regard for these old people when we are doling out these huge sums of money.
I must draw the comparison. I do not want to pay huge sums of money in increases of salary to certain people without giving some thought to the poorer sections of the community. We shall be voting ourselves an increase of 50 per cent. very soon, and it will be very hard for any one of us to talk about increases of salary. Human nature is such that we take generally what we can get, but I shall be faced with a position of some difficulty and shall have to say like the Scotsman that I take all I can get. At the same time, there is a feeling abroad that there is not much regard for the bottom dog. People who are getting comparatively good wages and are in high positions can get increases of salary without any comment, and, therefore, I feel 505 it my duty not to allow the Bill to go through without a Division. I must point out the difference there is between one particular section of the community and another, and I shall on all occasions try to drive that lesson home. We are failing in our duty until we have done something for those people who are on the lowest level.
§ 7.18 p.m.
§ Mr. GallacherI want to associate myself with the protest of the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) against this useless and wasteful expenditure of money. There is no question at all of the people concerned being in any financial or domestic difficulty. They can get along all right as things are now. I do not agree with those who say that these men have great ability, and are therefore deserving of large salaries. These particular individuals are selected and very carefully protected, and their ability is generally expressed in one particular direction. I have heard many of these judges express sentiments which have utterly shocked me. I would have deprived them of every penny that was coming to them when I have heard them express themselves in that way. Of course I happened to be in the dock at the time, and heard one of them using his so-called ability, which it is said is worth an increase of £300 a year, to send a fellow mortal behind the bars, whether he has committed an offence or not. I have never been taken in by the talk about their great ability. Like other hon. Members I am continually meeting people in my constituency who draw my attention to these increases for judges and for other
| Division No. 195.] | AYES. | [7.24 p.m. |
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke | Campbell, Sir E. T. | Emmott, C. E. G. C. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Carver, Major W. H. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Entwistle, Sir C. F. |
| Allen, Col. J. Sandeman (B'knhead) | Channon, H. | Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) |
| Amery, Rt. Hon. L. C. M. S. | Clarry, Sir Reginald | Everard, W. L. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs) | Fildes, Sir H. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Fleming, E. L. |
| Assheton, R. | Cox, H. B. T. | Foot, D. M. |
| Balfour, G. (Hampstead) | Critchley, A. | Furness, S. N. |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Crowder, J. F. E. | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) |
| Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Cruddas, Col. B. | Gledhill, G. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Goodman, Col. A. W. |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Gower, Sir R. V. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Dawson, Sir P. | Grattan-Doyle, Sir N. |
| Bowater, Col. Sir T. Vansittart | Denman, Hon. R. D. | Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Denville, Alfred | Gridley, Sir A. B. |
| Bracken, B. | Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) |
| Brass, Sir W. | Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Grigg, Sir E. W. M. |
| Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | Dugdale, Captain T. L | Grimston, R. V. |
| Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) | Dunglass, Lord | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Eastwood, J. F. | Guy, J. C. M. |
| Bull, B. B. | Elmley, Viscount | Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. |
| Burgin, Rt. Hon. Dr. E. L. | Emery, J. F. | Hanbury, Sir C. |
§ people, while at the same time they draw attention to the neglect of the lower people. I cannot understand Members of the Government and their supporters sitting so callously and so cold-bloodedly handing out money to people who do not need it, and at the same time neglect those who do.
§ No hon. Member opposite can make out a case that there is domestic or financial need of any kind on the part of these judges, and yet it is proposed to hand out money to them while old men and old women get 10s. a week. Have hon. Members no sense of proportion; no heart, no bowels of compassion? I am certain that hon. Members opposite cannot have, otherwise they could not do it. I shall declare throughout the country this scandal. It is a scandal to hand out £300 a year to those who have plenty and refuse to assist aged men and women and poor working men, who, despite the rise in the cost of living, are not to receive a penny increase of their pension of 10s. a week. Any hon. Member who has any feelings for the masses of the people and who desires to represent his constituents honestly and freely would not vote for this payment, but would concentrate his attention on administering to the needs of those who have absolutely nothing. I hope that every hon. Member who is concerned with the best interests of the country will go into the Lobby against this proposal.
§ Question put, "That the Bill be now read the Third time."
§ The House divided: Ayes, Noes, 94.
507| Hannah, I. C. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R | Shepperson, Sir E. W. |
| Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. | Shuts, Colonel Sir J. J. |
| Harris, Sir P. A. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Sinclair, Col. T. (Queen's U. B'lf'st) |
| Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe) |
| Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Morgan, R. H. | Spens, W. P. |
| Herbsert, A. P. (Oxford U.) | Munro, P. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Holdsworth, H. | Peake, O. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Petherick, M. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Hunter, T. | Procter, Major H. A. | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Joel, D. J. B. | Radford, E. A. | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Keeling, E. H. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) | Ramsbotham, H. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Wedderburn, H. J. S. |
| Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | White, H. Graham |
| Leckie, J. A. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Williams, C. (Torquay) |
| Lees-Jones, J. | Remer, J. R. | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Withers, Sir J. J. |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Ropner, Colonel L. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C. |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Rowlands, G. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) | |
| McKie, J. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Seely, Sir H. M. | Commander Sir Archibald Southby |
| Maitland, A. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | and Mr. Cross. |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Groves, T. E. | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Price, M. P. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Hayday, A. | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Riley, B. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Ritson, J. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Rowson, G. |
| Barr, J. | Hopkin, D. | Sanders, W. S. |
| Batey, J. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. | Shinwell, E. |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Short, A. |
| Brown, C. (Mansfield) | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Burke, W. A. | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Capo, T. | Kirby, B. V. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Chafer, D. | Kirkwood, D. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Lee, F. | Stephen, C. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Leonard, W. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | McGhee, H. G. | Thorne, W. |
| Dobbie, W. | MacLaren, A. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maclean, N. | Viant, S. P. |
| Ede, J. C. | Mainwaring, W. H. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Marshall, F. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Maxton, J. | Westwood, J. |
| Gallacher, W. | Messer, F. | Williams, D. (Swansea, E.) |
| Gardner, B. W. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Williams. E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Gibbins, J. | Naylor, T. E. | Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe) |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Noel-Baker, P. J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Paling, W. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Parker, J. | |
| Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Parkinson, J. A. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Mathers. |
§ Bill accordingly read the Third time, and passed.