§ 6.50 p.m.
Mr. AlexanderI beg to move, in page 28, line 13, at the beginning, to insert, "At any time or."
The Minister will remember that, in considering this matter in Committee, we were concerned at the opening of the Clause dealing with service schemes that we should not take away from the Commission the real power of initiation, consideration and preparation of any of those schemes. The purpose of the Amendment is, therefore, to widen considerably the powers of the Commission in the initiation of service schemes. I do not think there is need for me to argue the case at length. It is plain from the Clause as it stands that without the words which we now propose to insert the Commission will have to wait for a request from some trade body or bodies substantially representative of firms in the industry. It is possible that such bodies will not indicate that they are prepared to take the initiative. They may be led to believe that schemes of this kind might damage their interests, notwithstanding that the Commission may be of the view that if some scheme were commenced it would be of great service to the industry. We should not take away from the Commission that power of initiation. Having had time to consider this point in detail since our discussion in Committee, the Ministry will now be prepared, I hope, to give way. I might as well indicate that we regard this matter as of such importance that, while we do not wish to delay discussion in the House to any great length upon this matter, if the Minister is not prepared to give way we shall be forced to divide the House.
§ 6.52 p.m.
§ Mr. RamsbothamThe right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that, as the Bill stands, the Commission cannot 1053 prepare a service scheme unless requested to do so by any body or bodies that appear to the Commission to be substantially representative of some interest concerned with the livestock industry. I gather that the right hon. Gentleman wishes to alter that, and to enable the Commission to force schemes upon the industry without waiting for any initiative to come from it.
§ Mr. RamsbothamWhen I link this Amendment, as I am entitled to do, with a later Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams), designed to empower the Minister to approve a scheme without first assuring himself of the existence of a preponderating opinion in its favour, it appears that hon. Gentlemen opposite desire to alter completely the character of Part VI of the Bill. The only intention of this Part of the Bill is to enable any interest or combination of interests in the industry, whether producers or distributors, who are indicated in Clause 31 and in the new Clause which my right hon. Friend moved yesterday, to approach the Commission. It is not the intention to force schemes on the industry. That must remain a dividing point between us. We are not disposed to take the initiative; if you cannot force a scheme upon the industry, what is the good of taking the initiative? It is far more reasonable to allow the industry to come to the Commission with schemes.
Mr. AlexanderSurely it is possible to make an approach towards our proposal by giving power to the Commission to initiate a scheme and to put a draft of it before the industry for consideration. Otherwise nothing may be done at all.
§ Mr. RamsbothamI do not think that that is at all the best way of approach. The best course is to allow the sections
§ of the industry concerned to take the initiative in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. My opinion is that schemes initiated by the Commission would be still-born from the outset. It is better, as I said on the Committee stage, for these schemes to be born in the countryside than to be born in Whitehall. People who are experienced in agriculture will bear that opinion out.
§ Mr. RamsbothamI cannot expect the right hon. Gentleman to be convinced by what I am saying. A policy of forcing organisation upon the industry may appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I am sorry it does, because that savours of dictatorial policy, which we had always hoped was very far from their thoughts, It shows how they move with the times. We prefer to leave these matters to the good sense of the industry. In point of fact, the Bill provides for re-organisation of the market system and for fairly large-scale experiments in slaughtering. I suggest that we see what the outcome of Parts IV and V will be, instead of over-weighting the Bill, as we should if we accepted the Amendment, by giving power to the Commission to initiate schemes and to endeavour to foist them upon the industry. Experience shows that we have a much better chance of the successful adoption of a scheme if we leave it to the voluntary initiative of the interests concerned than if we endeavour to impose schemes. For that reason, and in the hope that I have convinced the right hon. Gentleman I suggest that he should not press his Amendment.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 205.
1055| Division No. 183.] | AYES. | [6.58 p.m. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Cooks, F. S. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Cove, W. G. | Grenfell, D. R. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Daggar, G. | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) |
| Banfield, J. W. | Dalton, H. | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) |
| Barnes, A. J. | Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) |
| Barr, J. | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) |
| Bevan, A. | Day, H. | Hardie, G. D. |
| Bromfield, W. | Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Ede, J. C. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) |
| Cape, T. | Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) |
| Charleton, H. C. | Gardner, B. W. | Jagger, J. |
| Chater, D. | Garro Jones, G. M. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) |
| Cluse, W. S. | Gibbins, J. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. |
| Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) |
| Jones, Moron (Caerphilly) | Oliver, G. H. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Kelly, W. T. | Parker, J. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. | Parkinson,J. A | Tnorne, W. |
| Kirby, B. V. | Potts, J. | Thurtle, E. |
| Lathan, G. | Price, M. P. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Lawson, J. J. | Quibell, D. J. K. | Walker, J. |
| Leslie, J. R. | Richards, R. (Wrexham) | Watkins, F. C. |
| Logan, D. G. | Ridley, G. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Lunn, W. | Riley, B. | Westwood, J. |
| Maodonald, G. (Ince) | Ritson, J. | Whiteley, W. |
| MoGhee, H. G. | Rowson, G. | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Maclean, N. | Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) | Williams, E. J. (Ogmcre) |
| MaeNeill, Wair, L. | Sanders, W. S. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Mainwaring, W. H. | Sexton, T. M. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Marshall, F. | Shinwell, E. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Maxton, J. | Short, A. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Messer, F. | Simpson, F. B. | |
| Milnar, Major J. | Smith, E. (Stoke) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) | Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves. |
| Noel-Baker, P. J. | Smith, T. (Normanton) | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. |
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Ellis, Sir G. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Emery, J. F. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Maxwell, Hon. S. A. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Erskine-Hill, A. G. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) |
| Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) | Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Fildes, Sir H. | Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Findlay, Sir E. | Moreing, A. C. |
| Assheton, R. | Foot, D. M. | Morris, O. T. (Cardiff, E.) |
| Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) | Frcmantle, Sir F. E. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Furness, S. N. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Ganzoni, Sir J. | Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. |
| Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley | Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. |
| Balniel, Lord | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir J. | Nicholson, G. (Farnham) |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Gluckstein, L. H. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Goodman, Col. A. W. | O'Connor, Sir Terence J. |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Gower, Sir R. V. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. St Hugh |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbre, W.) | Orr-Ewing, I. L. |
| Blair, Sir R. | Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) | Owen, Major G. |
| Blaker, Sir R. | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Patrick, C. M. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Hannah, I. C. | Peake, O. |
| Boothby, R. J. G. | Harbord, A. | Peat, C. U. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Harris, Sir P. A. | Penny, Sir G. |
| Bracken, B. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Petherick, M. |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | Pilkington, R. |
| Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Hepworth, J. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Radford, E. A. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey) | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Cayzer, Sir O. W. (City of Chester) | Higgs, W. F. | Ramsden, Sir E. |
| Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) | Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) |
| Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) | Holdsworth, H, | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Hopkinson, A. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Channon, H. | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Christie, J. A. | Horsbrugh, Florence | Ross Tayler, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Clarke, F. E. (Dartford) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Rowlands, G. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. | Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury) |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Joel, D. J. B. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) |
| Colfox, Major W. P. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Salmon, Sir I. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Jones, L. (Swansea W.) | Salt, E. W. |
| Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (Wst'r S. G'gs) | Keeling, E. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Sandeman, Sir N. S. |
| Critchley, A. | Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Latham, Sir P. | Selley, H. R. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) |
| Cruddas, Col. B. | Lees-Jones, J. | Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W D. |
| Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) |
| Davison, Sir W. H. | Levy, T. | Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe) |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Lewis, O. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Liddall, W. S. | Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Spens, W P. |
| Drewe, C. | Lloyd, G. W. | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) |
| Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) | Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. | Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) |
| Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Loftus, P. C. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Dugdale, Major T. L. | Mabane, W. (Huddcrsfield) | Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) |
| Duggan, H. J. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | McCorquodale, M. S. | Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h) |
| Dungfass, Lord | McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Eastwood, J. F. | McKie, J. H. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Magnay, T. | Tasker, Sir R. I. |
| Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Thomas, J. P. L. | Wardlaw-Milne, Sir J. S. | Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley |
| Titchfield, Marquess of | Waterhouse, Captain C. | Wragg, H. |
| Touche, G. C. | Wedderburn, H. J. S. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Train, Sir J. | Wells, S. R. | |
| Tree, A. R. L. F. | White, H. Graham | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) | Sir Henry Morris-Jones and Captain |
| Turton, R. H. | Withers, Sir J. J. | Hope. |
| Walker-Smith, Sir J. | Wolmer, Rt. Hon. Viscount |
§ 7.5 P.m.
§ Captain HeilgersI beg to move, in page 28, line 20, after "livestock," to insert:
or the carrying on of the business of conducting sales by auction.This is merely to get the Minister to clarify the position. This Amendment appears to be necessary notwithstanding the new Clause on service schemes in order to make it clear that the body representing the auctioneers may request that a service scheme may be made; otherwise it would be necessary to rely on the word "marketing," in line 17, to justify the auctioneers' position.
§ Mr. TurtonI beg to second the Amendment.
§ 7.6 p.m.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonWith the object of this Amendment I am in entire sympathy. It is of great importance to make sure that the wording is such as to enable auctioneers as a body to operate the service scheme. The hon. and gallant Member drew attention to the words in the Clause, "the marketing of livestock." To get the full phrase it must read:
any body or bodies appearing to the Commission to be substantially representative of the interests of any class or classes of persons engaged in …the production, marketing and slaughtering of livestock.I cannot conceive how it is possible that auctioneers are not persons who are engaged in the marketing of livestock. However, I see the point that may lie behind the uncertainty, and I want to make the position clear. I will look at the matter again, and if it is necessary to produce any other words, I undertake to do so, and get it done in another place.
§ Captain HeilgersIn view of the Minister's words, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
§ Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
§ Amendments made:
§ In page 28, line 20, leave out "if they consider."
1058§ In line 23, leave out from "persons," to the end of line 32.
§
In line 34, leave out "for the performance of services," and insert:
under this part of this Act (hereafter in this Act referred to as 'a service scheme')."—[Mr. Wedderburn.]
§ 7.10 p.m.
§ Mr. RamsbothamI beg to move, in page 28, line 40, to leave out from "to" to the end of line 2, on page 29, and to insert, "any of the said activities."
As the Bill stands, the scope of the scheme would be limited to the securing of statistics and information relating solely to the marketing of livestock or products of livestock. There does not seem to be any good reason why it should be so restricted. Producers may desire to get information relating to the production and slaughtering of livestock.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. RamsbothamI beg to move, in page 29, line 3, after "livestock," to insert "or products of the slaughtering of livestock."
The purpose of this Amendment will be self-evident. It is to enable service schemes for insurance to be introduced in respect of livestock products, including the carcases of livestock as well as livestock itself.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made:
§ In page 29, line 4, leave out "products of the slaughtering of livestock," and insert "such products as aforesaid."
§ In line 6, leave out "carcases," and insert "such products as aforesaid."
§ 7.13 p.m.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonI beg to move, in page 29, line 6, at the end, to insert:
(vi) the improvement of breeding of livestock.The purpose of this Amendment is also self-evident. It is to ensure that among the purposes for which service schemes 1059 can be put into operation is that of improving the breeding of livestock. Breeding is fundamental.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made:
§ In page 29, line 7, leave out subparagraph (vi).
§ Leave out lines 20 and 21.
§ In line 23, leave out "enabling a body constituted by," and insert "constituting a body to administer."
§ In line 25, after "body)," insert "and enabling that body."
§ In line 32, leave out from "authorised," to end of line 33.—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]
§ 7.14 p.m.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonI beg to move, in page 29, line 36, after "appointed," to insert "or elected."
This is merely to provide that one of these authorised bodies may have its members elected instead of appointed.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonI beg to move, in page 30, line 32, after "payable," lo insert:
or (ii) of disputes as to any such other matters as may be specified in the scheme.This is consequential on the enlarged duties of the body proposed to be set up under the new Clause. It was felt that there ought to be arbitration for disputes other than those in respect of the payment of compensation.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Mr. W. S. MorrisonI beg to move, in page 30, line 32, at the end, to insert:
(3) A service scheme for the marking of livestock or any products of the slaughtering of livestock may apply for the purposes of the scheme, with such adaptations as may be specified in the scheme, all or any of the provisions of Sub-sections (3) and (4) of Section two of the Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) Act, 1928, as amended by the Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) Amendment Act, 1931 (which Subsections provide for the punishment of persons forging, counterfeiting or improperly using any mark prescribed by virtue of that Act).We have amended the Clause to permit of a service scheme being applied for grading and marking. The operation of such a scheme would imply marks, and it is necessary to prevent the vitiation of such marks by forgery. This Amendment 1060 will allow the scheme to apply, for the protection of its marks, the Agricultural Produce (Grading and Marking) Act, 1928.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 30, line 33, after "may," insert:
subject to the provisions of the next following Section."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]