HC Deb 03 May 1937 vol 323 cc863-77

7.14 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I beg to move, in page 3, line 16, to leave out "at least three," and to insert "four."

This refers to the independent members of the Livestock Advisory Committee and the Amendment has two purposes. In the first place, it is partly consequential on the acceptance by the House of the Sub-clause on Wales and a new sub-committee of the Livestock Advisory Committee. If hon. Members will look at the Second Schedule they will see that it is necessary to make provision for the chairman of the committee itself and of each of the sub-committees—now three in number —so that the independent members are fixed at four. The second purpose served is to try to meet criticisms made in Committee which I promised to consider. Apprehensions were expressed in all parts of the Committee as to the power to appoint independent members to the Livestock Advisory Committee. It was felt and feared that if the Minister had this power he would be able to exercise it in such a wholesale fashion as to swamp by his own nominees the more representative members of the Livestock industry. I did not like to accept the suggestions on the super of the moment, because I wanted a little time to consider whether four independent members was a sufficient number to allow chairmen to provide deputies for each other in case of illness or absence. On mature reflection I have come to the conclusion that four is quite enough. After all, the Advisory Committee and the sub-committees are very unlikely to be sitting at the same time, and I believe that four independent members, by making mutual arrangements under which they will deputise for one another when necessary, can perform the function of providing independent chairmen for the committee and the sub-committees, which is their function.

7.16 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

While we have no objection to the right hon. Gentleman limiting the number of additional members of the committee, I hope that by some future Amendment the measure of representation now given to the industry will to some extent be mitigated by the inclusion of representatives of the largest body of people in the country. We think that four independent members will serve the purpose better than three, but I am not sure that it is wise for the Minister to limit his appointments to four. However, as long as we may expect sympathy later, we will offer no objection to this Amendment.

7.17 p.m.

Sir R. W. Smith

Suppose no one of the appointed members was there to act as chairman of the committee. In that case would it be impossible for the committee to sit, or could they appoint one of their number to act as chairman at that meeting?

7.18 p.m.

Sir E. Shepperson

I should like to express the appreciation which many of us have of the action of the Minister in meeting our point. We were afraid that the independent members might become a majority on the Livestock Advisory Committee, but we are satisfied that as there are to be only four of them that cannot possibly happen.

7.19 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

By the leave of the House, I will reply to the question which has been addressed to me by the hon. Member for Central Aberdeen (Sir R. W. Smith). He asked what would happen if all four independent members were absent, which, I think he agrees, is an unlikely contingency. If he will consult paragraph 4 of the Second Schedule he will see that though independent members have to be appointed as chairman of the committee and as chairmen of the sub-committees the general procedure—as to the quorum and so on—of each sub-committee can be decided by the committee themselves, subject to directions from the Minister, and I think that will give me the opportunity to make the necessary provision for the unlikely contingency which he has in mind. I am obliged to the lion. Member for Leominster (Sir E. Shepperson) for what he has said.

Amendment agreed to.

7.20 p.m.

Mr. Barnes

I beg to move, in page 3, line 20, at the end, to insert "(a) consumers."

A feature of the proceedings on this Bill has been the readiness with which the Minister has listened to all the representations from his political friends, and I hope that he will give some sympathy to this Amendment which we are submitting on behalf of the consumers. The taxpayers will have to find £2,000,000 of this subsidy and the consumers of imported meat will have to find £3,000,000. On the Livestock Advisory Committee there is to be direct representation for the producers of livestock, for local authorities and for auctioneers. Hon. Members will see that in Clause 11 of the original Bill some reference was.; made to consumers, but that appeared to arouse the opposition of the Minister, because in Committee he proceeded to delete that reference to consumers and it is no longer in the Bill. The great majority of the people of this country are not so much interested in the reorganisation of the livestock industry from the standpoint of auctioneers or producers of stock, although there is a general desire that those who have the responsibility of producing British cattle shall be able to do so under reasonably economic conditions, and it is undesirable that we should be passing legislation to provide for those very limited special interests without providing an opportunity for great consumers' organisations to be represented in order to see that no injury is done to the people who consume the products of the industry. The Livestock Advisory Committee is not an executive body, the Commissioners being the executive body and the Advisory Committee is set up to give the Commissioners advice in the general direction and reorganisation of the industry. It appears to me that the Commissioners will not get the type of balanced advice which they should have unless consumers are represented on the committee.

Mr. Leonard

I beg to second the Amendment.

7.23 p.m.

Mr. H. Haslam

I hope that the Minister will not accept this Amendment. I do not see that consumers require any particular representation on the Livestock Advisory Committee. They are amply protected by the very large supplies of meat from all over the world which come into this country at competitive prices, and I do not suppose that any really impartial person would deny that, generally speaking, the consumer in this country gets his beef, his mutton, and his food generally at a lower price, perhaps, than the consumer in any other country. That being so there does not seem to be any particular need to have some representative on this Committee to look after his interests. The very fabric of our system amply protects his interests. The hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes) contrasted the position of the consumers with that of the auctioneers and others more directly concerned with the industry, but the comparison is not really a just one. Through the closing, possibly, of certain markets auctioneers may find themselves in the position of losing their business, and consequently they ought to have some representation. Further, it is not possible to effect any reorganisation of or improvement in the livestock industry without the co-operation or advice of auctioneers, who play such a large part in that industry. This Bill, by aiding the production of British beef, will materially help the consumer in this country. The support which the Government have given to the livestock industry in recent years has undoubtedly assisted consumers. It has made the supply of meat larger than it otherwise would have been, arid it has kept the home sources of supply in being. The encouragement of this home industry is of the utmost importance as a war emergency measure. This Bill, by encouraging the home industry, will prove to have been of considerable benefit in any time of emergency. I trust the Minister will not accept the Amendment.

7.26 p.m.

Mr. Acland

I should like, in one or two sentences, to express my surprise at the speech of the hon. Member for Horncastle (Mr. Haslam). It is remarkable that he should say that the consumer is protected by the fact that we have a free market, whereas really we have nothing of the kind. The market has been regulated quantitatively over a series of years—I cannot off hand remember how many— and in addition the consumer has to ¾d. pay per 1b. duty on imported foreign meat.

Mr. Haslam

indicated dissent.

Mr. Acland

Certainly the consumer pays it. At least, the British Iron and Steel Federation, when they wanted the duty on pig-iron reduced, said that the users of pig-iron in this country were paying the duty, and I submit that it is the same in the case of imported meat. Moreover, consumers must be vitally concerned in all matters affecting the quality of meat. Not only are they benefited directly if the quality is improved, but if the quality improves and more British meat is purchased and higher prices are obtained for it. consumers may not have to continue paying this duty of ¾d. per 1b. for so long. They are also concerned with the efficiency of the marketing arrangements. I contend that the Amendment ought to be accepted so as to give consumers direct representation on this important committee and its sub-committees, which are to advise the Minister on all matters relating to the Bill.

7.30 p.m.

Mr. Turton

I should like to know how the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. Acland) would like to see this Amendment carried out. The Mover talked about great consumers' organisations. I have yet to find consumers bonded together in great organisations. I rather think that he is falling into the same grave error that he made in the Committee stage, when he patted himself proudly on the back and said: "I am a great consumers' organisation," although his profits came from distribution and not from consumption. The Livestock Advisory Committee has to give expert advice, but who is the right type of expert to advise about consumption? My hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Mr. Liddall), and I suppose the hon. Member for Brigg (Mr. Quibell), might be regarded as qualified to put themselves forward as the right type of consumer.

Lieut.-Colonel Heneage

I hope my hon. Friend is not leaving out Yorkshire.

Mr. Turton

I quite agree with my hon. and gallant Friend, who also represents a Lincolnshire Division. The fact that they eat Yorkshire beef is proved by the fact that they have grown to large proportions in this House. The hon. Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams) is one of those lean men, like Cassius. Evidently he does not use Yorkshire beef to the same extent as do the men of Lincolnshire. If you want expert advice about the consumption of meat you should put forward the local authority, the one body which represents the ratepayers. We already have representatives of the local authorities of Great Britain, and one of their functions will be to put forward the views of the ratepayers, who are the people who eat meat. The local authorities are therefore the organisations which represent the consumers. It would be a great mistake to put into the Bill words which mean nothing, and to put in a phrase such as "representing an organisation of consumers" when no such a body exists and when consumers are already adequately represented. The advice that consumers can give in an expert capacity is very limited.

7.34 p.m.

Captain Heilgers

My hon. Friend has pointed out that the Co-operative movement is already represented on the Livestock Advisory Committee. The cooperative people are producers; I believe they lose a great deal of money every year in farming. Surely, therefore, as the committee is at present constituted, they will have some voice in the decisions of the committee. The co-operative movement may be concerned with production and slaughtering, and so forth, but it is a general business, and, as my hon. Friend has just pointed out, the committee will be a technical committee and purely advisory. Above all, the aim of the committee, in the Minister's eyes at any rate, is that it should not be sectional. The hon. Member for East Ham South (Mr. Barnes) must therefore console himself with the thought that everybody on the committee, as constituted, is a consumer.

7.35 p.m.

Mr. Messer

I cannot understand why there should be such difficulty in appointing a representative of what is definitely an organisation of consumers.

Captain Heilgers

What is it?

Mr. Messer

The opposition to the Amendment seems to be misleading in its argument. It is said that we already have representatives of the local authorities, but they will be there not as representatives of the community as consumers, but from the standpoint of the health services, more than anything else. It has been said that the Cooperative Movement is a great business undertaking and that its profits are made out of distribution, but distribution among whom? There are 7,000,000 members of the Co-operative Movement, and those members own the business. It is the only organisation of consumers, and it cannot be said that it represents a limited number. These 7,000,000 members of the public are bound together in an organisation. The argument which was addressed to the House just now was that you do not find an organisation which binds the people as consumers, but that statement is quite wrong. I suggest that the function of a representative of the consumers on this committee would be to see that the advice given and the decisions arrived at are not solely for the purpose of seeing that production is improved, if that would be done at the cost of the consumers. There is, therefore, a very weighty reason why a representative of the purchasing public should be on this committee.

7.36 p.m.

Mr. Price

It is essential that some much more definite reference to the consuming public should be inserted in the Bill, and this is a very good place to do so. Exception seems to be taken to direct representation of the Co-operative Movement in this country which, it is suggested, is more concerned with trade and distribution and profits than with the consumer. That cannot be said about big local co-operative societies like the London Co-operative Society, which is engaged in large distribution over the Metropolis. Any processing they undertake is directly connected with distribution to its consuming public. Whatever may be said about the central Co-operative Wholesale Society and its business operations, with which I will not deal—there may be reasons for proposing not to have representation for them upon this body; I do not know, and I will not express an opinion—as regards the local societies there is no reason whatever why they should not be regarded as directly representative of the consumers.

Other bodies could very well have the right to appoint someone, or from which a representative could be selected by the Minister, to serve on this committee. The Food Council are in existence for the purpose of watching prices and serving the interests of the consumer. Why could they not represent the consumer? Any person appointed ad hoc for this purpose surely could be found. While I will not say it is essential to have this inserted in the Bill, a good opportunity is presented by this Clause, and I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some satisfactory explanation why it should not go in, and some promise to insert it somewhere else if he cannot do so here.

7.40 p.m.

Mr. Kingsley Griffith

I am glad that the last speaker has made what, I think, is a necessary correction in the Debate. It seems to be too widely assumed on both sides of the House that the representatives of the consumers appointed would necessarily be co-operative representatives. It may very well be that that body would be the most convenient and representative, but the Amendment does not say so. As far as the Amendment is concerned, it would be quite in order to appoint a member of the Carlton Club; emphatically this is an association of consumers, because the members go there to eat. It has been said that there is no necessity for representation of consumers on this body, but the one thing that makes me think that such representation is necessary is the enormous anxiety that some hon. Members have shown in this Debate to keep them out. That leads me to suppose at once that such representatives might be able to perform a useful function. As I see Measure after Measure produced—which may have their merits.—for the assistance of producers, I feel that in all matters, as representatives of the various constituencies, we should see that the consumers' point of view is never left out. The consumer is as much interested in the success of a scheme like this as are the producers. It is idle to say that everybody is a consumer, and that the producers' representatives are good enough in themselves to represent the consumers' case as well, but that is not so. If a man goes there with a definite brief and a definite point of view, he puts forward that point of view, and the consumers' side is temporarily suppressed until the meeting is over and it comes to lunch time. The consumer should be represented on as many of these bodies as possible. Such representatives should represent consumers directly, and attend for that purpose.

7.42 p.m.

Mr. Ramsbotham

I always feel sympathetic with the hon. Member for East Ham, South (Mr. Barnes) when he produces something with which I can sympathise. On this occasion, I am afraid that there are fundamental difficulties about his Amendment. There is, first, the immense difficulty of finding a body which can represent consumers to the satisfaction of all consumers. I gather from what the hon. Member said that he had in mind the large organisation with which he is connected. Everybody has a great respect for that organisation, but it would be most inadvisable to embody an organisation of that kind in the Bill if it were hoped to obtain the general consent of the consumers of the country. It is true that the main function of local authorities will be to give advice on health matters, but if it were ascertained that consumers' interests were neglected I am not at all sure that the local authorities would not represent the point of view of the consumers. Everyone is a consumer; my right hon. Friend is a consumer and so am I. That is a definite, and, I think, unavoidable difficulty in this Amendment, and I see no way of overcoming it.

After all, there are ample safeguards in the Bill. The orders have to go through the Minister and to come before Parliament, and if hon. Members imagine that they contain anything detrimental to the consumers, there will be an opportunity of stating so. The hon. Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. K. Griffith), as well as the hon. Member for East Ham, make me think that they do not quite appreciate the purpose of the committee. The hon. Member spoke about a member of the committee coming with a definite brief, but it will not be that member's function to come with a brief for this or that interest. The purpose of the committee is to give technical advice to the Commission, and the members are there not to represent this or that section. We do not want this committee to be a com- mittee of sections, each warring with the others, and endeavouring to represent interests which may or may not be inconsistent. We do not want them to establish a system of Whips, parties, divisions, and so forth. They are there to be technical advisers. Far these three reasons, therefore—first, that I cannot think of a body which could be nominated to represent the consumers; secondly, that the members of the committee are in themselves, by implication, concerned with the interests of the consumers; and, thirdly, that they are there to give technical advice to the Livestock Commission and not to represent the interests of this or that section—I trust that the House will agree that it would be most unwise to accept the Amendment.

7.46 p.m.

Mr. T. Williams

I am rather afraid that the Minister of Pensions has not been so successful as he usually is. At least, he has not persuaded me that this Amendment ought not to be accepted. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Mr. Turton), who is always, or almost always, wrong, was equally wrong on this occasion, when he referred to my leanness as due to my lack of consumption of Yorkshire beef. May I suggest to him that my leanness is perhaps more due to good breeding than to that reason? With regard to this Amendment, the Livestock Advisory Committee is a very important body. It will tender advice to the commission on marketing schemes, slaughtering schemes, restriction of imports of foreign beef and veal, and all kinds of things that are of fundamental importance, and because it is so important a committee, we also think that it ought not to be heavily loaded in favour of vested interests. We hope that whoever the Minister may appoint as members of this committee will carry their skill, experience and technique into the counsels of the Committee, but we are convinced that they would he unnatural business men if they did not carry the interests of their particular industry into that committee. It always has been done and will be done in future, and it will be done here, because the Minister himself has invited it.

The hon. Gentleman the Minister of Pensions said that we ought not to have a committee consisting of individuals haggling over this, putting forward dif- ferent points of view, and squabbling, but that is exactly what the Minister has catered for. In Clause 3, Sub-section (2) he says that we are to have four additional members of the Livestock Advisory Committee, representation for producers of livestock, for local authorities, for auctioneers, for butchers, and for those interested in the marketing or preparation for sale of livestock or products of the slaughtering of livestock. What has he got there except a body of individuals who will definitely put their own point of view? Contrariwise, we are at least entitled to say that the consumers as such are entitled to a point of view in the counsels of that committee. It may be extremely difficult, as the Minister of Pensions declares, to select one person or two persons out of 46,000,000, but whether they are members of the co-operative society or not makes no matter. If they have the consumers' interest at heart, then at least they will carry the experience and technique of consumption, prices, and other relevant considerations within that committee should they become members of it.

Let me put this final and clinching argument in favour of the Amendment. Under Clause 3 the Minister provides himself with the power to appoint four additional members. Then he definitely allocates positions for three different interests. Assuming that he only gave those separate interests one member each, that would be four additional members and three representing various interests, or seven in all. But as he has already provided for the setting up of three subcommittees, one each for England, Scotland, and Wales, and he has further already provided that at least two-thirds of each sub-committee shall be members of the Livestock Advisory Committee, how can he have those sub-committees with two-thirds of the number out of a maximum of seven? This clearly indicates that what must happen is that there will be four additional members and that there must of necessity, in view of the sub-committees, be two members representing the three different interests, making to in all. Therefore, this Livestock Advisory Committee, which is so important and which can be so useful one way or the other, will be heavily loaded in favour of vested interests, a thing that we ought not to cater for with our eyes wide open.

When we invite the Minister to insert a representative of the consumers so that consumers shall definitely have a point of view within the counsels of this committee, we are not asking that some particular individual who has no national conscience, who has no business capacity, or who is blinded with partiality should be made a member of the committee, We are asking that a point of view apart from that of the producer of livestock, the auctioneer, or the butcher shall have a place on the committee. The Minister of Pensions must remember that the consumer as such and the taxpayer between them in any case are to provide the cattle producer with £5,000,000 per annum, so that we have already made things fairly comfortable for the cattle producer. We have put that in his hands almost to commence with, and all that we are asking now is that where it becomes a question of a marketing scheme, or a slaughtering scheme, or of saying whether there shall be further restrictions imposed upon imported beef or veal, the consumer shall have a voice.

I do not think the Minister has made out a case against the Amendment. So long as the Government, definitely or with malice aforethought, have made arrangements to give all other interests representation, weighted representation on the Livestock Advisory Committee, I think we are entitled to press for representation for the consumers. Let the Minister or the Ministers, for there are three of them, all Scotsmen, choose Scotsmen, Irishmen, Welshmen, or Englishmen—we do not mind—but let them choose men or women to represent the consumers who have the capacity, who have the desire, and who are willing to render that national service. I think the Minister of Pensions ought to reconsider this question.

Question put, "That (a) consumers ' be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 98; Noes, 192.

Division No 179.] AYES. [6.36 p.m.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Harris, Sir P. A. Quibell, D. J. K.
Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Ridley, G.
Adams, D. (Consett) Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Riley, B.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Adamson, W. M. Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Rothschild, J. A. de
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Jigger, J. Rowson, G.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Sanders, W. S.
Barnes, A. J. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Seely, Sir H. M.
Barr, J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sexton, T. M.
Batey, J. Kelly, W. T. Short, A.
Bellenger, F. J. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Simpson, F. B.
Bromfield, W. Kirby, B. V. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Lathan, G. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Burke, W. A. Lawson, J. J. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Cape, T. Leonard, W. Sorensen, R. W.
Cluse, W. S. Leslie, J. R. Stephen, C.
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Logan, D. G. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Cocks, F. S. Lunn, W. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Dalton, H. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Thorne, W.
Ede, J. C. McEntee, V. La T. Thurtle, E.
Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) McGhee, H. G. Tinker, J. J.
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. MacLaren, A. Viant, S. P.
Gallacher, W. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Walkden, A. G.
Gardner, B. W. Marshall, F. Walker, J.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Watkins, F. C.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Muff, G. Watson, W. McL.
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Nathan, Major H. L. Wayland, Sir W. A
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Owen, Major G. Westwood, J.
Grenfell, D. R. Paling, W. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Parkinson, J. A. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Pethlok-Lawrente, F. W. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Groves, T. E. Potts, J.
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Price, M. P.
Hardie, G. D. Pritt, D. N. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Charleton.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Entwistte, Sir C. F. Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Errington, E. Perkins, W. R. D.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Erskine-Hill, A. G. Petherick, M.
Albery, Sir Irving Findlay, Sir E. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Fox, Sir G. W. G. Pilkington, R.
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh) Fremantle, Sir F. E. Plugge, Capt. L. F.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Ganzoni, Sir J. Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Apsley, Lord Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton
Aske, Sir R. W. Gluckstein, L. H. Procter, Major H. A.
Astor, Major Hon. J. J. (Dover) Goodman, Col. A. W. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Gower, Sir R. V. Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.
Atholl, Duchess of Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Ramsbotham, H.
Balfour, G. (Hampstead) Gridley, Sir A. B. Rawson, Sir Cooper
Balniel, Lord Grimston, R. V. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) Reid, Sir D. D. (Down)
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Guinness, T. L. E. B. Remer, J. R.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Guy, J. C. M. Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Bennett, Sir E. N. Hannah, I. C. Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Bernays, R. H. Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Ropner, Colonel L.
Birchall, Sir J. D. Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Blinded, Sir J. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Boothby, R. J. G. Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. Russell, A. West (Tynemouth)
Bossom, A. C. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Boulton, W. W. Hepburn, P. G. T. Buohan- Salmon, Sir I.
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Salt, E. W.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. Higgs, W. F. Samuel, M. R. A.
Bracken, B. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Sandeman, Sir N. S.
Brass, Sir W. Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. Sanderson, Sir F. B.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Holmes, J. S. Sandys, E. D.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Savery, Sir Servington
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Hopkinson, A. Selley, H. R.
Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Brown, Brig.-Gen, H. C. (Newbury) Horsbrugh, Florence Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Bull, B. B. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Shepperson, Sir F. W.
Burton, Col. H. W. Hudson, R. S. (Southport) Simmonds, O. E.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Hunter, T. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
Cary, R. A. Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Somervell. Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Castlereagh, Viscount Joel, D. J. B. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Spens, W. P.
Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
Cazalet, Capt. V. A. (Chippenham) Lambert, Rt. Hon. G. Storey, S.
Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) Latham, Sir P. Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.)
Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) Leighton, Major B. E. P. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Clydesdale, Marquess of Lewis, O. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Lindsay, K. M Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F.
Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Lloyd, G. W. Tasker, Sir R. I.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. Tate, Mavis C.
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)
Courtauld, Major J. S. McEwen, Capt. J. H. F. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Courthope, Col. Sir G. L. McKie, J. H. Thomas, J. P. L.
Croft, Brig.-Gen. Sir H. Page Maenamara, Capt. J. R. J. Titchfield, Marquess of
Crooke, J. S. Magnay, T. Touche, G. C.
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Maitland, A. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
Crowder, J. F. E. Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Cruddas, Col. B. Manningham-Buller, Sir M. Turton, R. H.
Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Wakefield, W. W.
Davies, C. (Montgomery) Markham, S. F. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Davison, Sir W. H. Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) Warrender, Sir V.
Dawson, Sir P. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Waterhouse, Captain C.
De Chair, S. S. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R. Wells, S. R.
Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Morgan, R. H. Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Drewa, C. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl
Duckworth, Arthur (Shrewsbury) Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. Wood, Rt. Hon. Sir Kingsley
Dugdale, Major T. L. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Wragg, H.
Duncan, J. A. L. Nicholson, G. (Farnham) Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.
Dunglass, Lord O'Connor, Sir Terence J. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Edmondson, Major Sir J. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Palmer, G. E. H. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Ellis, Sir G. Patrick, C. M. Commander Southby and Sir Henry
Elliston, Capt. G. S. Peake, O. Morris-Jones.
Elmley, Viscount Penny, Sir G.

Question put, and agreed to.

Division No. 180.] AYES. [7.55 p.m.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Hardie, G. D. Pritt, D. N.
Acland, R. T.-D. (Barnstaple) Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) Quibell, D. J. K.
Adams, D. (Consett) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Richards, R. (Wrexham)
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Ridley, G.
Adamson, W. M. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Riley, B.
Ammon, C. G. Jones, A. C. (Shipley) Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Rowson, G.
Barnes, A. J. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Sanders, W. S.
Barr, J. Kelly, W. T. Seely, Sir H. M.
Bellenger, F. J. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Sexton, T. M.
Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. Kirby, B. V. Short, A.
Bevan, A. Lathan, G. Silkin, L.
Bromfield, W. Lawson, J. J. Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Leonard, W. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Burke, W. A. Leslie, J. R. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Cape, T. Logan, D. G. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Charleton, H. C. Linn, W. Sorensen, R. W.
Chater, D. Macdonald, G. (Ince) Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Cluse, W. S. McEntee, V. La T. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Clynee, Rt. Hon. J. R. MoGhee, H. G. Thorne, W.
Cocks, F. S. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Thurtle, E.
Dalton, H. Marshall, F. Tinker, J. J.
Ede, J. C. Maxton, J. Viant, S. P.
Evans, E. (Univ. of Wales) Messer, F. Walkden, A. G.
Gardner, B. W. Milner, Major J. Watkins, F. C.
George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Watson, W. McL.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Westwood, J.
Gibbins, J. Muff, G. Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Owen, Major G. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Paling, W. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Grenfell, D. R. Parkinson, J. A.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) Potts, J. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Price, M. P.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Crowder, J. F. E. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Cruddas, Col. B. Hopkinson, A.
Agnew, Lieut.-Domdr. P. G. Davies, C. (Montgomery) Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L.
Albery, Sir Irving Dawson, Sir P. Horsbrugh, Florence
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Denman, Hon. R. D. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)
Aske, Sir R. W. Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Hudson, R. S. (Southport)
Atholl, Duchess of Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Hunter, T.
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Dugdale, Major T. L. Joel, D. J. B,
Baldwin, Rt. Hon. Stanley Duggan, H. J. Kerr, H. W. (Oldham)
Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. Duncan, J. A. L. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Ellis, Sir G. Knox, Major-General Sir A. W. F.
Balniel, Lord Elliston, Capt. G. S. Lamb, Sir J. Q.
Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. Elmley, Viscount Leckie, J. A.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H, Entwistle, Sir C. F. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Erskine-Hill, A. G. Lewis, O.
Birchall, Sir J. D. Everard, W. L. MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G.
Blindell, Sir J. Findlay, Sir E. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight)
Bossom, A. C. Fleming, E. L. McKie, J. H.
Boulton, W. W. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Magnay, T.
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Furness, S. N. Maitland, A.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. Ganzoni, Sir J. Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.
Brass, Sir W. Gluckstein, L. H. Manningham-Buller, Sir M.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Goodman, Col. A. W. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Gower, Sir R. V. Markham, S. F.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.
Bull, B. B. Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester) Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)
Burghley, Lord Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)
Burgin, Dr. E. L. Gridley, Sir A. B. Milts, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Burton, Col. H. W. Grimston, R. V. Moore, Lieut.-Col. T. C. R.
Butler, R. A. Gritten, W. G. Howard Morgan, R. H.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll. N. W.) Morris-Jones, Sir Henry
Cary, R. A. Guinness, T. L. E, B. Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Guy, J. C. M. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)
Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) Hannah, I. C. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H.
Channon, H. Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) O'Connor, Sir Terence J.
Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Heilgers, Captain F. F. A Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G. A.
Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Penny, Sir G.
Cook, Sir T. R. A. M. (Norfolk, N.) Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan Percy, Rt. Hon. Lord E.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Perkins, W. R. D.
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) Herbert, Capt. Sir S. (Abbey) Petherick, M.
Courtauld, Major J. S. Higgs, W. F. Pickthorn, K. W. M.
Courthope, Col. Sir G. L. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Crooke, J. S. Holmes, J. S. Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton
Procter, Major H. A. Selley, H. R. Thomas, J. P. L.
Raikes, H. V. A. M. Shakespeare, G. H. Titchfield, Marquess of
Ramsbotham, H. Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar) Touche, G. C.
Rathbone, J. R, (Bodmin) Shepperton, Sir E. W. Tree, A. R. L. F.
Rawson, Sir Cooper Simmonds, O. E. Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
Rayner, Major R. H. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Reed, A. C. (Exeter) Somerville, A. A. (Windsor) Turton, R. H.
Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) Southby, Commander A. R. J. Wakefield, W. W.
Reid, W. Allan (Derby) Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend)
Renter, J. R. Spens, W. P. Warrender, Sir V.
Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) Waterhouse, Captain C.
Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) Stanley, Rt. Hon, Oliver (W'm'l'd) Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Ropner, Colonel L. Stewart, J. Henderson (Fife, E.) Wells, S. R.
Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Rothschild, J. A. de Strickland, Captain W. F. Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.
Rowlands, G. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) Young, A. S. L. (Partiok)
Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) Sutcliffe, H.
Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) Tasker, Sir R. I. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Salt, E. W. Tate, Mavis C, Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lombert Ward
and Major Sir George Davies.