HC Deb 03 May 1937 vol 323 cc924-31

10.55 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I beg to move, in page 12, line 17, leave out from "Commission," to "may," in line 20.

This Amendment and the four succeeding Amendments are in consequence of an assurance I gave in Committee. Clause 15 suggested erroneously that the Commission would proceed to put down in black and white their livestock orders before consultation had occurred. It was suggested, with some justice, that if they had committed themselves to a printed paper it would be difficult to make the consultations effective. These Amendments give effect to the assurance that I would reconsider the matter, and I think it is now beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Commission will not get this Order into draft without the consultations which are necessary for a proper draft to be made.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 12, line 20, after "may," insert: subject to the provisions of the next following Sub-section and to the provisions of Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act.

In line 24, leave out "Third Schedule to this Act," and insert "said Schedule."

In line 25, leave out from "Minister," to the end of line 26, and insert: if satisfied that the making of the order is desirable for the promotion of efficiency or economy in the marketing of livestock, may make the order either in terms of the draft or with modifications thereof."—[Mr. W. S. Morrison.]

10.57 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I beg to move, in page 12, line 26, at the end, to insert: (2) When the Commission first decide that a livestock markets order is desirable in relation to any area, they shall forthwith serve a written notice of their decision (specifying the said area) on such bodies as appear to the Commission to be representative of local authorities and other interests likely to be affected by the order, and shall give those bodies a reasonable opportunity of making to the Commission representations with respect to the terms of the draft order; and the Commission shall, in settling the terms in which the draft order is to be submitted to the appropriate Minister take into consideration any such representations as aforesaid which may have been made to them by the said bodies, and also consult the Livestock Advisory Committee. This Amendment is moved to make it clear that the consultation between the Commission and those affected shall precede drafting by the Commission.

10.58 p.m.

Mr. Haslam

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 3 to leave out from "on," to the first "and," in line 4, and to insert: local authorities within the said area and adjacent to the said area which the Commission may consider to be affected. In the first place, I should like to give my thanks to the Minister for the alterations made in Clause 15, making it quite clear that there will be publicity and full discussion. That is what some of us asked for on the Committee stage, because, after all, if the Livestock Commission propose to reorganise the markets in a particular area they can do so more successfully if the local authorities and those interested in the markets are taken into full consultation. The Amendment undoubtedly carries out that pledge and the local authorities and the people in the market towns, especially those in far distant districts, are very much gratified at the action of the Minister. The Amendment which I and certain of my friends are moving, is really a very small one. The Minister's Amendment states that the Commission will give notice of their intention to reorganise markets and will serve a written notice of their decision (specifying the said area) on such bodies as appear to the Commission to be representative of local authorities. The words to which I direct attention are such bodies as "appear to the Commission to be representative of local authorities." My Amendment seeks to ask the Commission to give direct notice to the local authority. That seems the simplest and most straightforward way of proceeding, especially in the case of the smaller local authorities which may be very interested in particular markets. I understand that the words "such bodies as appear to the Commission to represent them" may refer to the Urban District Councils' Association or to the associations of local authorities. Surely it is much simpler to give direct notice, and it would be a much better opening for those consultations which the Minister desires to have.

11.1 p.m.

Sir J. Lamb

I beg to second the Amendment to the proposed Amendment.

In doing so I would thank the Minister for his action in putting down the proposed Amendment. Our Amendment is a simple one. I take it that the Minister is wishful that representations should be received from those who have anything germane to say on the question to the Commission. He has indicated that he thinks it would be permissible for local authorities to be represented by an association, but in the first instance the association would most probably give a majority view to the Commission, whereas some local authorities might have a minority view, although a very important one, which they felt they should place before the Commission. If they were represented only by an association, the danger, and probably more than the danger, would be that the specific case would not be heard before the Commission. There would thus be a grievance, and that is undesirable for the future good working of the scheme.

11.3 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I hope that my hon. Friends will believe me when I say that I adopted this form of words in order to give effect to the assurance which I gave in Committee, and that I believe it is the best way for the Commission to act in complete co-operation with local authorities. I would point out to my hon. Friends that it is possible for a livestock markets order to cover a very considerable extent of territory. As the term "local authority" implies every local body except the parish council, it might be that the area of a livestock markets order was so wide that a very large number of local authorities would be within its boundaries. According to the Amendment, they would all have to be consulted seriatim by the Commission. That is a very stringent burden to place upon the Commission, in the way of spreading their consultations over more numerous bodies. The Commission are obliged by law to send out many documents, and because of the heavy burden which it will lay upon them, the less heavy should be the burden laid on them of consulting the interests concerned.

The way this thing works is that committees are formed by local authorities. People with a particular interest connected with a proposed order prefer to come together in a negotiating nucleus rather than that each and all of them should separately undertake negotiations with the Commission. The Commission are bound, under the terms of my Amendment, to consult all such bodies and interests as appear to them to be likely to be affected, and I would ask my hon. Friends to rest assured that, in the first place, the Commission are bound under my Amendment to consult the interests likely to be affected, and therefore the case of the small urban or rural district council holding a market could not possibly be overlooked. In the second place, I would ask them to remember that in fact every local authority in the area affected does have a direct right of representation to the Commission, and there is nothing in the Bill which prevents it making its views known to the Com- mission if it deems itself likely to be affected. In the last resort, it can, if it has been overridden, if there is any chance of that—I believe there is not—appeal to the Minister against the order and carry all its dilatory proceedings to the very fullest extent. I believe that this is the best method for securing the most effective consultation. It is far better than the sort of arm's length procedure of giving every single local authority which might not be affected at all —and the great number of them will not be affected at all—the right to have written notice served upon it and to be consulted in every case. I am convinced, and my hon. Friends can take it from me, that under this procedure there is no chance at all of any local authority, however small, having its views neglected when a livestock markets order is being drafted.

11.7 p.m.

Mr. H. G. Williams

For once I do not think the Minister has quite met the point of the Amendment. My right hon. Friend visualises that bodies representative of local authorities would be ad hoc bodies formed for the purpose of dealing with the situation, but that manifestly cannot be the case, because until the Commission have decided to draft an order, and until they issue it, nobody knows they are going to do it. Therefore there cannot be any bodies representative of the local authorities except the distinguished people who live in a large building across the road namely, the Association of Municipal Corporations, the County Councils Association, the Urban District Councils Association, and I think also there is a Rural District Councils Association. So far as I am aware, they are the only bodies representative of local authorities, and therefore this is in fact a statement that the written notice is to be sent to those four bodies all or practically all of whom have their rooms in a large building just across the road from here.

But that is not what the Minister indicated. He indicated that there would be local bodies representative of local authorities in the area affected, but there are not any. He said that no small authority is likely to be left out, because the words "other interests likely to be affected" govern them. I am not an eminent K.C. like the Minister, but surely the correct reading is this, that if you have to send a document to such bodies as appear to the Commission to be representative of local authorities and other intelersts likely to be affected, the words "other interests" exclude the local authorities, and therefore no small local authorities will get any communication at all. In fact, no local authority in the area affected will get any communication until they get it from London, and that is the kind of thing which irritates the countryside, that they should receive all their communications, not direct, but through the office in the large building across the road. I ask the Minister to look again into this problem, because I am satisfied that the Amendment of my hon. Friend puts the matter in a very much more satisfactory way and in a way which will, I am certain, be gratifying to rural opinion.

11.9 p.m.

Brigadier-General Brown

Has the Minister in mind the county agricultural committees? They would be able, in the areas with which they are connected, to give this information. I suggest that the Rural District Councils Association, for instance, of which I have the honour to be vice-chairman, would not be a suitable body to spread that information, but that it would be much better that this duty should be placed in the hands of the County Agricultural Committee. I am not quite sure whether, under the Bill, the county council would be allowed to have anything to do with it.

11.11 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

Perhaps, with the leave of the House, I may say a further word. I will look at this point again. I am anxious to make sure that everyone feels happy about it, because it is necessary, not only that justice should be done, but that it should manifestly appear to be done. My desire, however, and I hope my hon. Friends will bear this in mind, is to avoid loading the Commission and the fund with needless expense. I wish to make sure, on the one hand, that adequate notice is given to all those who are likely to be affected, and at the same time to avoid waste of money on needless documentation which does not add to the enlightenment of anyone. With this assurance, I hope that my hon. Friends will see their way not to press the Amendment.

Mr. Haslam

In view of the Minister's expressed desire that full notice shall be given to the local authorities, and of his assurance that he will look into the matter, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment to the proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Proposed words there inserted in the Bill.

11.13 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel Acland-Troyte

I beg to move, in page 13, line 2, at the end, to insert: Provided also that in the case of a livestock markets order revoking a livestock markets order which was confirmed by Parliament the revoking order shall be provisional only and shall not have effect until confirmed by Parliament, whether a memorial praying that such order shall not become law without confirmation by Parliament shall be presented under paragraph r of Part 11 of the Third Schedule to this Act or not. Under Clause 15, the Minister can approve of certain livestock markets orders, and they have to come before Parliament for confirmation. He can also revoke an order which has been passed by this House, provided that the Order is not executive, without referring to the House again. It seems to me to be derogatory to the dignity of this House that the Minister, having received the consent of the House to an Order, will be able, the next day or a few days after, completely to alter the Order without the consent of the House. I hope he will see that it is not right that that should be possible.

Brigadier-General Brown

I beg to second the Amendment.

11.14 p.m.

Mr. W. S. Morrison

I have considered this Amendment, and I sympathise in some degree with the motive which has prompted it. But I would point out that the Clause already provides, in Subsection (4), that an Order varying or revoking a livestock market order shall be subject to the like conditions as the original Order. There is, therefore, no question of a revoking Order being in any better position than the original Order. That means that, if an amending or revoking Order were opposed, the Provisional Order procedure would apply to it; but of course, if it is not opposed, the Provisional Order procedure, which is dilatory in character, is, quite properly, not imposed. If I were to accept the Amendment, I should be in the peculiar position, that whereas an unopposed markets Order might pass the House without Provisional Order procedure, an unopposed Order to revoke or vary it, which everyone agreed to, would also have to go through Provisional Order procedure. I am certain that is not my hon. and gallant Friend's intention, but by Sub-section (4) the two things are exactly on the same footing. When he realises that, I am sure he will agree that it will he better not to incur the expense and delay of Provisional Order procedure.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

11.16 p.m.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson)

I beg to move, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."

Good progress has been made, and the Government hope that the House will feel that to-morrow should see the completion of the Report stage and Third Reading of the Bill.

Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee and on recommittal) to be further considered To-morrow.

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