HC Deb 15 March 1937 vol 321 cc1795-801

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a number of Air Forces, not exceeding 70,000, all ranks, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom at home and abroad, exclusive of those serving in India, during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 5933.

12 m.

Mr. Lees-Smith

I beg to move, That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again. It is now midnight. We have only just moved Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, and there are a large number of Members who still wish to make their observations. These Estimates are of larger size than have ever been presented. If we begin to discuss Vote A now, it means that we shall not have another opportunity of raising large general issues in connection with the Estimate, but can only raise technical issues.

12.1 a.m.

Mr. Garro Jones

On the last occasion on which we discussed the Services we were confronted with the same unfortunate situation in which we find ourselves now. The whole day has been occupied on the Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair." At about II o'clock the Speaker left the Chair on the last occasion, and at 12 o'clock to-night we are supposed to embark upon a whole series of Estimates for large amounts. The pay of the Royal Air Force alone is £9,000,000; Warlike Stores, £40,000,000; Works, Buildings and Land, £18,000,000; Civil Aviation, £2,000,000; and all this is on top of the vast general questions that we shall discuss, and which Vote A will give us the last opportunity of discussing. Not only have we the Service Estimates, but the whole field of civil aviation and air policy generally to discuss at this late hour. One feature about this practice, which is becoming habitual on the part of the Government, is that, if we rise at this late hour, we find ourselves the victims of what can only be described as barracking by Members who do not realise what the duty of the House is in regard to Estimates. Moreover, they do not scruple, after they have made these complaints against our desire to criticise those Estimates to criticise what they are pleased to term the ineffectiveness of the Opposition.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury knows that this is the hour at which Members on these benches are desirous of catching their last trains home, and he takes advantage of our needs in that direction to get his business through. We need not mince words over this. There is no doubt that he takes advantage of the situation to force business through the House, and it is time for it to stop. I hope that this matter will be brought to a head on this, the second occasion on which Service Estimates have been brought forward at this late hour. When the Motion "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair" came to its end, you, Sir, were occupying the Speaker's Chair, and there were no fewer than three hon. Members—

The Chairman

Order! The hon. Member seems to be intending to say something he knows is not allowed.

Mr. Garro Jones

With great respect, I was not about to make any reflection upon the conduct of the Chair. I was merely going to point out the fact that three lion. Members rose in their places, and because they were not aware of the fact that it was their business to address the Chair, they were not seen by you, Sir. Therefore, they were not given an opportunity of speaking, owing to a certain lack of technical knowledge of procedure, which on another occasion, I hope, will not prevent them from making their observations when they desire to do so. I hope that on this occasion hon. Members on all sides will support us in our contention that it is wrong for these vast Estimates to be brought forward at midnight—Estimates for £50,000,000, covering the whole field of aviation. It is making a farce of the duty of this House to examine these Estimates, and I hope that hon. Members will give their support to this Motion to prevent this sort of thing.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Captain Margesson)

The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Aberdeen (Mr. Garro Jones) has, I think, engendered something that was not necessary.

Mr. Garro Jones

Not from your point of view.

Captain Margesson

The Government have never attempted to force the House to go beyond what it should go. Whenever a reasonable appeal has been made from the Front Bench opposite, I think they will agree, the Government have taken up a reasonable attitude, and it is not necessary at this hour to engender heat that ought not to be engendered at all. At Question Time, when the Prime Minister was asked for what purpose the Eleven O'clock Rule was being suspended, he said that it was in order to get Mr. Speaker out of the Chair, and to consider Votes A, 1 4, 3 and 8, and the Air Supplementary Estimate in Committee. The Committee is well aware that on these occasions it is customary that the House should be asked to sit somewhat late in order to complete the business. We are now approaching that period of the year when the Financial Year comes to a conclusion, and, therefore, Parliamentary business has to be completed within a certain range of time. But, as is usual, in response to the appeal made by the Front Bench opposite, we will now proceed with Vote A, and, on the completion of Vote A, will allow Votes 1 4, 3 and 8, and the Air Supplementary Estimate, 1936, to remain over until another day. I should like to point out that there are many hon. Gentlemen in all parts of the House waiting to make speeches on this particular subject, but many of them refrained from speaking on the Motion, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," on the understanding that they would have an opportunity of speaking on Vote A. Therefore, I think that it will be felt in all quarters of the House, that it is only right and just that we should get this Vote.

12.9 a.m.

Mr. Kelly

I am not surprised that the Patronage Secretary should not accede to the request which has been made to him, and he has made matters worse by his statement that there are so many hon. Members who desire to speak upon this Vote. That means that many of the Members on this side of the Committee who have to catch their trains are to be put to an expense that they can ill afford in order to reach their homes at an hour after the last trains have gone. They will be compelled to remain here to listen to the speeches which the Patronage Secretary states will have to be delivered. Surely, further time can be found for the examination of these Estimates, particularly Vote A. If we are to part with Vote A now we shall be parting with the one opportunity for a general discussion on matters other than those specifically mentioned in other Votes. I hope the Patronage Secretary will think again and will agree that we should report Progress and ask leave to sit again in order that these Estimates may have the examination for which they call. Surely we have no right at this hour to commence Vote A and to examine it, if we cannot in the name of the country be able to say clearly that we have done all that it was possible to do to show that matters are right with regard to the Estimate? I do ask the Patronage Secretary to agree that this discussion should finish now in order that we may deal with these matters at a time when they can have the care and attention which they require, and which the country asks us to give to them.

12.12 a.m.

Mr. Tinker

I think the Patronage Secretary, if he will allow me to say so, has been very unreasonable to-night. I heard the Under-Secretary make a speech which took over an hour and during the whole of the Debate the majority of the speeches have come from the opposite side of the House. As a rule when we appeal for the suspension of the Debate and it is resisted, it is because we have taken the whole time, but on this occasion the majority of the speakers have been from the other side. This is a most important matter for the whole Committee. The Under-Secretary said that these were the greatest Estimates for years. That being so, it is time we broke down the old tradition of getting through the Estimates in one day. On this occasion, owing to the exceptional nature of the demands, I think we are only asking for what is reasonable when we ask that the Debate should be adjourned and a fuller examination given to the Vote on another day. We are only asking a fair thing, and if the Patronage Secretary de- sires things to move as smoothly as they have done and he cannot object that they have not moved smoothly; too smoothly, for me—and if he does want a response from this side, he will have to give way a little more than he does. I am not going to make an appeal in the direct sense, but it is better for him to consider our point of view and to agree to it. I do not want to use threats, but if we do not get our way he can expect a sterner opposition than he has had up to the present. On these grounds I think it would be wise to agree to adjourn the Debate.

12.15 a.m.

Mr. Gallacher

Everything comes to those who wait, but if the Patronage Secretary expects us to wait and deal with Vote A he is labouring under a serious mistake. If he keeps us here until our trains and trams are gone we are left to tramp along the weary road while others sail along in their nice limousines. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Rolls Royces on your side?"] I have not come into contact with them, anyhow. If there is one, it will be a rarity, but in so far as the Patronage Secretary and his friends are concerned, they are waiting to step into their limousines. It is a scandal that at this time of night we should take such an important Vote. The Patronage Secretary and the Leader of the House, on whom the responsibility must fall, must understand perfectly well that the Members of this House on the other side are not in a fit condition to pursue such an important discussion. It is no use telling us that some of them have kept back their speeches. They may have got their secretaries to prepare essays on this question. We know all about these essays which are already prepared with somebody waiting to hand them out to the Press. Here is one of the most important discussions to which we could direct attention—Vote A, which is concerned with such enormous expenditure. I do not know whether what the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence said is correct, that under Vote A you could have a general discussion. I should like to draw attention to the fact that there is a complete lack of understanding about the expenditure on the Air Force.

The Chairman

I must point out to the hon. Member that on a Motion to report Progress speeches must be confined strictly to that Motion.

Mr. Gallacher

I would like, if the discussion is to be of this character, to deal with many things, but it is impossible to deal with them in the situation at such an hour as this when it would be taking risks in certain respects unnecessarily to disturb the somnolence of hon. Members on the other side because of the condition in which they find themselves and in which they would get too rough a shock. It might have a very bad effect on their health. So I ask the Leader of the House, and I plead with him, to understand the necessity of having the Committee prepared for a discussion of this sort, and therefore I urge that we should report Progress so that we may get a proper discussion.

Mr. Lees-Smith

The Patronage Secretary suggested that if we dealt with Vote A, then Votes 1, 3, 4 and 8 should be postponed until a later time. Of course, that does not meet our difficulty. It is this Vote A which raises such large general issues, and on which we think there should be discussion at a reasonable hour. In view of the fact that these are the largest Estimates ever presented in time of peace, and do not therefore represent a normal year, I suggest that if he would allow us to discuss Vote A during the ordinary hours of discussion and report Progress now, then certainly we could pass Votes 3, 4 and 8 with little or no further discussion.

Captain Margesson

The Government respond at once to the suggestion made by the right hon. Gentleman. We shall be prepared to report Progress on Vote A on the understanding that we can get through the remaining items on the Order Paper to-night.

Mr. Lees-Smith

I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Motion.

  • Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  • Original Question again proposed.
  • Motion, by leave, withdrawn.