BRITISH BROADCASTING CORPORATION. (Hansard, 21 June 1937)

§ Mr. G. Strauss
I desire to raise a matter of some public importance in connection with the position of the staff employed by the British Broadcasting Corporation, and, particularly, the apparent hostility of the directors of the B.B.C. to trade unions when those trade unions are exercising their normal functions among the staff of the B.B.C. I think that it is true to say that right from the very beginning there has been a considerable amount of dissatisfaction among the entire staff of the B.B.C. in regard to the facilities provided for them to make complaints or to convey their feelings on staff matters to those in control. It was, therefore, natural and right, that, when the committee known as the Ullswater Committee considered the whole constitution of the B.B.C., they reviewed this matter and made certain recommendations. Those recommendations, which were reported in February of last year, were that there should be external unions or internal associations, possibly both, and the only comment which the Ullswater Committee made on those two possible forms of representation was that they did not see that the external unions would afford a comprehensive solution of the problem of staff representation.
In June of last year the Government made a statement to the effect that the 980 B.B.C. had undertaken to provide all facilities for staff associations. Shortly after that a new officer was appointed—a Mr. Pim, Director of Staff Administration—but from that day to this, as far as I know, no steps have been taken by the B.B.C. Director of Staff Administration or anybody else to provide facilities for staff representation. No pronouncement was made by the Government in regard to trade union facilities among the staff of the B.B.C., and, indeed, as far as I can tell, the B.B.C. has shown itself definitely hostile to the trade unions. They have denied to the trade unions opportunities which they receive from local authorities, Government Departments, and most responsible employers, and, by that cold-shouldering of trade unions, they have given the staff to understand, rightly or wrongly, that they would not appreciate the action of those members of the staff who desire to join trade unions. There is ample evidence for that statement. I have here considerable correspondence from the organisers of various trade unions with the B.B.C., and I should like to read two or three short extracts showing the attitude of the Director-General of the B.B.C. to trade unions. Here is a letter from the Organising Secretary of the Association of Women Clerks and Secretaries to the B.B.C. in March of last year. This request was made: It is customary for Government Departments, local authorities, and other responsible authorities to give facilities for us to enable us to maintain and establish contacts with their staffs, and I feel sure your Corporation will be prepared to accept this practice and permit us to hold a meeting as suggested. The answer was: It is definitely not our policy to allow access in the trade union sense, as that would imply a departure from our principle of nondiscrimination between staff who belong to a union and staff who do not. Later, this further request was made from the secretary of the same trade union: 981 Our members would like to place before their colleagues a statement of the position in regard to the organisation in the form of a leaflet, a draft copy of which I am enclosing. I shall be glad to have confirmation from you that there will he no objection to the action they propose to take. The reply was: I am sorry that we cannot give the confirmation you ask for, as by doing so we consider that both a precedent and a privilege would be established. From the organising secretary of the association I received a letter in regard to this and other correspondence which I have not time to quote in full: We have, for some time past, been attempting to organise the women clerical staff in the B.B.C. and we have found the official attitude very unhelpful, if not definitely hostile. Early this year, the Electrical Trades Union wrote as follows: Although we have a number of members there they are very timid at letting the establishment know that they are members of a trade union. The organising secretary of the National Union of Printing, Bookbinding and Paperworkers writes to me as follows: I requested that facilities might be granted to hold a meeting of the workers concerned inside the establishment outside working hours, but this was definitely refused. The Engineering Trades Union officers stated to me that none of the ordinary facilities were provided for approaching members of the staff who were connected with the union, that numbers of the staff were frightened to belong to a trade union, and that the B.B.C. authorities refused to set up any machinery which would in effect recognise the trade unions.
It is perfectly true that the trade union officials have on occasion discussed with the British Broadcasting Corporation certain matters in regard to remuneration and the conditions of work of members who might be in their union, and on some occasions the discussions have been quite amicable; but my point is that the British Broadcasting Corporation refuse to grant the ordinary rights of trade unions for organising membership, rights which are not special but are granted by, I think almost without exception, every public body, local authorities, Government Departments and responsible employers. That is the right of a trade union organiser to go into the premises 982 of a Government Department or a local authority after office hours, with, of course, the permission of the manager, and talk to the employés and ask if they desire to join a trade union and put before them the advantages of joining a trade union. That facility has been denied to trade unions who have approached the B.B.C. If Government Departments, which are more or less under the direct control of public representatives, and under the control of this House, grant this facility, it is all the more important that the B.B.C., a body which is much more indirectly under public control, should allow its staff to join trade unions without fear of victimisation. Moreover, it is important that trade unions should be allowed the same facility there as they are in other places. I am not sure how far the Postmaster-General is sympathetic to trade unions in this matter. I put a question on 3rd May to this effect: whether the British Broadcasting Corporation have yet taken any steps to implement the recommendation of the Ullswater Committee that trade unions should he permitted to organise eligible employés of the corporation, in view of the fact that many grades of employés are at present not working under trade union conditions? In his reply, the Postmaster-General said: I am not aware that everybody is compelled to accept the policy of the Labour party."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 3rd May, 1937; cols. 778–9, Vol 323.] I do not know what he meant by that, and whether he views trade unions with hostility, but I suggest that it is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, in regard to the higher-paid members of the B.B.C. who have had no facilities after a year and a quarter since the publication of the Ullswater Committee's Report to form a staff representation. It is most unsatisfactory that the trade unions should be met with a blank wall of hostility, and that the established rights of trade unions recognised by other bodies should be refused by the B.B.C Whatever the reason, whether it is the autocratic and domineering personality of the Director-General, it is unsatisfactory and would not have the support of hon. Members in any part of the House. The matter should be carefully investigated and remedied at the earliest possible moment by the Postmaster-General.

§ The Postmaster-General (Major Tryon)
I am glad that the hon. Member, who has been anxious to raise this matter for a long time, has at last had his opportunity. I cannot accept his statement that there is general dissatisfaction throughout the whole staff of the British Broadcasting Corporation, nor his statement that there is any definite hostility towards trade unions. That is, to put it mildly, an exaggeration. The hon. Member has confused two things. In the question put to me he appeared to allude to outside trade unions, and suggested that the Ullswater Committee thought that that was a solution of the difficulty. As a matter of fact, the Ullswater Committee's report did not justify the wording of the hon. Member's question. The Ullswater Committee said that staff representation might take one of two forms—the intervention of external trade unions or the constitution of one or more internal associations. These are two different things. The Ullswater Committee pointed out a fact which the hon. Member has, I think, rather ignored in his apparently simple solution of this difficulty. They pointed out he fact that on the British Broadcasting Corporation there is a great diversity of occupations—musicians, entertainers, novelists, journalists, office staff, house staff, and so on. The work is specialised, and as a rule there are very few workers or staff in any one of these particular sub-divisions of the work. The Ullswater Committee went on to say: For these reasons, it is difficult to foresee any comprehensive solution on the lines of the first alternative. The Committee did not recommend the solution which the hon. Member is trying to force on the B.B.C. on the strength of a Committee which did not recommend it. With reference to the second solution, that is, internal staff associations, the Committee said: We think that the Corporation should make it clear that they will provide all necessary facilities for any representative organisation, whether a single staff association or smaller bodies, or representatives of appropriate groups The Government accepted that recommendation and said so in a White Paper, and the B.B.C. have agreed to adopt it. In view of the fact that the B.B.C. have agreed to adopt this recommendation, it 984 seems to me very unfair to the B.B.C. to suggest that they are hostile to a solution which they have agreed to accept.

§ Mr. Kennedy
Are we to understand that no difficulty will arise in respect of any section of the staff, including those described by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, desiring to join what are called external associations?

§ Major Tryon
Not only would there be no difficulty, but many belong to them now. My point was about the way in which the B.B.C. were to solve the very difficult internal problem of staff representation when so many different occupations were involved. As the hon. Member pointed out, the Corporation appointed a new individual to go into the matter. He was a man having great experience of these affairs, and he reported to the B.B.C. last February. Following the Paper issued by the Prime Minister in connection with a recent very celebrated case, the Corporation decided to seek the advice of the Treasury in this matter on the strength of the Prime Minister's statement that the experience of the Civil Service was available to them when they wanted advice, and the Treasury suggested that it should be studied by a small committee, and that is being done now. It is not true to suggest, therefore, that nothing has been done.
The committee consists of Sir James Rae, of the Treasury, Mr. Bowen, late general secretary of the Union of Post Office Workers, and Mr. Darbyshire, establishment officer of the London Midland and Scottish Railway. In this extremely difficult and complicated matter the British Broadcasting Corporation are definitely in favour of setting up one or more associations, but until this committee, which has very able and experienced people on it, reports, it is not fair to blame the British Broadcasting Corporation for not taking action when they have sought this extremely valuable advice. With reference to the question of outside trade unions, the Leader of the Opposition asked whether the British Broadcasting Corporation was willing to meet representative members of trade unions with regard to their grievances. The answer is "Yes." Moreover, a number of the employés of the corporation do belong to trade unions at the present moment. Therefore, I submit, first, that 985 it is not accurate to suggest that the British Broadcasting Corporation is hostile to setting up staff associations, seeing that it has sought valuable advice with regard to doing so. Secondly, it is not fair to say that the British Broadcasting Corporation is hostile to trade unions, seeing that its staff are allowed to belong to trade unions.

§ Mr. Kennedy
My hon. Friend has produced indications which show differently.

§ Major Tryon
The hon. Member has not produced any cases beyond quoting certain letters of which I got no notice whatever. I think it is only fair, when they say they are willing to do a thing and have set up a committee to go into it, to assume that they are perfectly honourable 986 in their statement that they are willing to do the thing. It is only fair to assume that they are willing to carry out the recommendations of the committee.

§ Mr. G. Strauss
Will they give the same facilities as those which are given by other Government Departments and local authorities to trade union organisers to go on the premises?

§ Major Tryon
I have described the opportunities which they give.