§ 10.59 p.m.
§ Mr. LloydI beg to move, in page 44, line 34, to leave out "lawfully."
Shortly speaking, the position is that bakehouses which received certificates of suitability under the Act of 1901, and it is a serious thing that there was no power at that time to withdraw those certificates. Many hon. Members are opposed to underground bakehouses, particularly the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield), and undoubtedly there are objections to them. Before deciding what course we should adopt we had an investigation made and the result went to show that while the conditions in some of the basement bakehouses were bad, the conditions in others were not bad. We thought the best way to deal with the matter was to make a provision, as we do by this group of Amendments, for recertification or examination once again to see whether, in the: light of modern conditions, they are suitable to be used as basement bakehouses. It they are found not to be suitable by the district council, the certificate will be withdrawn. If, on the other hand, the conditions are found to be all right, it will be continued.
§ Amendment agreed to.
§
Further Amendment made: In page 44, line 35, after "Act," insert:
and a certificate of suitability had been issued by the district council under an enactment repealed by this Act in respect thereof."—[Mr. Lloyd.]
§ 11.2 p.m.
§ Mr. BanfieldI beg to move, in page 44, line 35, after "Act," to insert:
and in any case shall not be so used after the expiration of five years after the date of the passing of this Act.The purpose of the Amendment is to prohibit altogether within a period of five years the use of underground bakehouses. Reference has just been made by the Under-Secretary to the 1901 Act. There is a remarkable history in connection with underground bakehouses and the Act of Igor. At that time Mr. John Burns 508 was a Member of the House and was very interested in the question. He urged eloquently in the House that these bakehouses should be done away with. After a great deal of pressure and a number of eloquent speeches and pledges on his part, a provision was put into the Act whereby these bakehouses should be declared suitable and that no further basement bakehouses should be allowed. There was a good deal of gratification among those who work in bakehouses because it was considered that Mr. john Burns had abolished underground bakehouses. We were so grateful that we had a national collection and presented Mr. John Burns with a testimonial for his noble work in abolishing underground workhouses. The argument was this, "A certificate of suitability for underground bakehouses already in existence will be given, and as time goes on they will be closed up, there will be no further underground bakehouses allowed, and consequently they will be done away with."What happened was contrary to all expectations. These certificates of suitability were issued, and unless the premises have been absolutely closed for a period of, I think, six months, they can still continue to be used as bakehouses. In 1901 the majority of those underground bakehouses were already old, had been inexistence probably for 40 or 50 years, and are now at least 36 years older than they were in 1901. There have been no new underground bakehouses since. Some of these places may not be so bad as others, but I say, speaking from my practical experience, that they should all be done away with, in the interests of the health of the men working there, in the interests of the public health, and in the interests of the public, because it is essential that food should be made under decent and proper conditions.
I have no quarrel with the employers in this instance, but with all due respect to them I deny that it is possible to make bread under decent conditions in what are really underground cellars, such as hon. Members can see for themselves in the West End of London. We now have a new Factories Bill, 36 years after the last Factory Act was passed, and I do not know when we shall get another, but it would be awful to think that some 30 years hence a Member might have to stand up in this House and ask for underground bakehouses to be abolished. 509 Let us take advantage of the existing opportunity. After all, there has been 36 years' notice that underground bakehouses were going to be closed. The bakers were told that they must fully understand that sooner or later the underground places would have to go, and I suggest that it would now be quite enough to give them five years—
§ Mr. McGovernHard labour!
Mr. BonfieldNo. I do not want anybody to accuse me of attempting to ruin some poor master baker or unfortunate widow. Heaven forbid that I should be accused of that. They have had all that long notice, and I suggest that they should he given another five years, and that at the end of that time these underground places should be done away with altogether. I notice that the Government have put down an Amendment to introduce a new Sub-section in respect of this matter, and I should like to be allowed to make reference to it. In that Amendment it is suggested that there should be an inspection of these bakehouses once in five years. I want the right hon. Gentleman to remember that up till now all bakehouses, underground ones included, have been dealt with by the local authorities. It is suggested in this new Sub-section that they should still he dealt with by the local authorities. For all these years the local authorities have been inspecting these bakehouses and have practically agreed that in some degree they should be regarded as suitable. You will make the local authority responsible for saying whether their bakehouses are suitable or not, and that will be a tremendous mistake. The responsibility should be put upon the Department. The local authorities are no solution of the problem, because their representatives will go and look round these places, which will have been got ready for the occasion, and will say: "It looks a lovely place." The local authority will say: "We know Mr. Jones and his sons. They are respectable people, and have always been good ratepayers. Certainly, give him his certificate. Why should we put any pres, sure upon a man like that?" That will go on for five years, and at the end of that time the game will be repeated.
In the main, these places are not fit for men to work in. The right hon. Gentleman's factory inspectors will take him, if he has never seen one of these places, 510 down some cellar steps into a hot and fetid room in which the temperature is about 105 or 106. There he will see four or five men stripped to the waist, working in singlets, with their boots on, and the sweat pouring off them because the place is so hot and there is no ventilation. He will say that that is not a fit place for men to work in or for food to be prepared in.
Surely the time has come to deal with this situation. The case was won in 1909. The Government of that day knew very little about labour conditions, compared with what we know now, but even that Government said that such conditions should be done away with. Now, 36 years have gone past and very few of these places have been done away with. It would be no hardship to the employers, provided they had their five years' notice.
I want the right hon. Gentleman to remember that in the days when these places were made bakeovens were built in them. They took a great deal of work. The ovens were built of brick and stone and were not bad ovens, a lot better than we have to-day. To-day we do not build that kind of oven. You can build a bakehouse oven in almost any kind of room, because you have only to bolt so many pieces of iron and steel together and then get heat, whether by gas or electricity or by a furnace at the back, and you have an oven such as bakers use to-day.
The problem of finding space for new places is not so great as it was. Hon. Members now in the Chamber are interested in the baking business and control between 24 and 32 shops. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Harrow (Sir I. Salmon) is here, and he could support me in this argument. The spectacle of the hon. Gentleman championing the small employer always makes me laugh. A few years ago every one of those places which I have mentioned as being now under the control of one firm, had an oven. Most of them have an oven now which is not used at all. Many of these businesses have been centralised, and one place, in the majority of cases, is now turning out as much as the whole of those shops. Therefore spare ovens are there which can be used to replace these underground bakehouses. I am sure that no good employer, like the hon. Member for Harrow, would support these under- 511 ground bakehouses. The hon. Member would say, if he got up to speak, which I do not suppose he will do, "You are quite right, Banfield; these things ought to be done away with. We do not have them ourselves; we have beautiful place's for our men to work in." But I expect he would also say: "But let us consider these poor small bakers. They have wives and children to support. Do not let us do anything to injure them if we can help it." Nevertheless, the big wholesale houses swallow up these small people.
I hope the Government will be able to meet me in this matter. In the provinces the vast majority of these underground bakehouses have disappeared. London is the one place where this evil is rampant. When I was speaking yesterday about the abolition of night baking, I told the House how you could walk along the streets in the West End of London and see the patches where the wet pavement had become dry from the heat of the bakers' ovens underneath. They should be done away with on moral and hygienic grounds, and on every other ground that one can think of, for the sake of the health and happiness and comfort of the men who work there and for the protection of the public as a whole, and I ask the House to support me on this Amendment. We are going to take it to a Division. Would it be possible, for once, for hon. Members of this House really to vote as they feel they should vote according to their conscience? Is it absolutely necessary that they should support the Government? The Government will not resign if we decide to abolish underground bakehouses. In fact, if the House supported me, I daresay the Home Secretary would say. "Well, after all, it is a good job we have got rid of them," and everyone would be happy. I hope that hon. Members will, on this occasion at any rate, do something to bring a little comfort into the lives of the hard-working men in the baking industry.
§ Mr. JaggerI beg to second the Amendment.
I hope that the brevity with which I do so will not be taken as any measure of my earnestness, but at this late hour I do not wish to detain the House with more than a formal word.
§ 11.18 p.m.
§ Mr. ManderI think that, if there is any question of presenting a testimonial to the Home Secretary on the abolition of underground bakehouses to which I am sure we should all be very glad to subscribe, it would have to follow the event, unless we were able to arrange for the transfer of the gold plate which I believe was given to Mr. John Burns about 36 years ago; but the right hon. Gentleman would certainly deserve a testimonial of some kind if he abolished these underground bakehouses. We are faced once again, as we have been on several occasions yesterday and to-day, with a choice of methods. We all want to achieve the same result, and the question is, which is the better way of doing so? I am rather disappointed at the way which the Government have chosen. When this matter was discussed in Committee, a general feeling was expressed on all sides that long enough notice had been given—that 36 years was ample and it was rather hoped that the Government were going to set a definite term, whatever it might be, to the future existence of these underground bakehouses—a term such as that for which the hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. Banfield) has pleaded so, eloquently. I am sorry they have not seen their way to do so. No doubt, what they are doing is an advance, as are so many of the other proposals that they have made. At the same time, I do not think it goes far enough and I shall support my hon. Friend in the appeal that he has made for a final term.
§ 11.21 p.m.
§ Mr. LloydWe are providing the essential thing, which is to insist on proper hygienic and sanitary conditions for these bakehouses, but is it necessary to go further, as the hon. Member desires, and finish all these bakehouses in five years in view of the position? The position is that these bakehouses are disappearing at present. Their numbers are falling the whole time They are, in fact, being swallowed up by the large concerns. It is a fact, and we ought to take it into consideration, that all these basements are small-master bakehouses. The essential thing is to see that public health requirements are met. The Government are not prepared to bring the life of these master bakers to an end.
§ 11.23 p.m.
§ Mr. Rhys DaviesThis is indeed one of the lamest excuses. Just imagine what they are doing. In every factory in the land where the conditions are not up to standard there is an over-riding power in the hands of the factory inspector over the local authority. Here, however, the local authority is paramount. Why that should be the case I do not understand. Then the hon. Gentleman says the small man will have to close down. What do we find the Ministry of Health doing when there is a slum clearance? I have seen slum clearance in Manchester where
§ they have made acres of land absolutely derelict and cleared away shopkeepers by the score. In fact, these underground bakehouses are nothing but slums in themselves, and we are a little astonished that the hon. Gentleman has not availed himself of the opportunity and stated definitely that, in the interest of the health of the community, they ought to be wiped out at least within five years.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."
§ The House divided: Ayes, 125; Noes, 187.
515| Division No. 224.] | AYES. | [11.25 p.m. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Pethick-Lawrence, Rt. Hon. F. W. |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Harvey, T. E. (Eng. Univ's.) | Quibell, D. J. K. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Richards, R. (Wrexham) |
| Ammon, C. G. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) | Ridley, G. |
| Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. | Hills, A. (Pontefract) | Riley, B. |
| Banfield, J. W. | Holdsworth, H. | Ritson, J. |
| Barnes, A. J. | Hollins, A. | Roberts, Rt. Hon. F. O. (W. Brom.) |
| Barr, J. | Hopkin, D. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) |
| Bellenger, F. J. | Jagger, J. | Rowson, G. |
| Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Salter, Dr. A. (Bermondsey) |
| Bevan, A. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Broad, F. A. | Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Bromfield, W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) | Silkin, L. |
| Buchanan, G. | Kelly, W. T. | Silverman, S. S. |
| Burke, W. A. | Kirby, B. V. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Cape, T. | Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Cassells, T. | Lathan, G. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cluse, W, S. | Lawson, J. J. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Leach, W. | Sorensen, R. W. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lee, F. | Stephen, C. |
| Daggar, G. | Leonard, W. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dalton, H. | Leslie, J. R. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Logan, D. G. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton) | Lunn, W. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Viant, S. P. |
| Day, H. | McEntee, V. La T. | Walkden, A. G. |
| Dobbie, W. | McGhee, H. G. | Walker, J. |
| Dunn, E. (Bother Valley) | McGovern, J. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Ede, J. C. | MacLaren, A. | Welsh, J. C. |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Mainwaring, W. H. | Westwood, J. |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Mander, G. le M. | White, H. Graham |
| Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Marshall, F. | Whiteley, W. (Blaydon) |
| Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Maxton, J. | Wilkinson, Ellen |
| Foot, D. M. | Messer, F. | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Gardner, B. W. | Milner, Major J. | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Garro Jones, G. M. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Gibbins, J. | Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Oliver, G. H. | Young, Sir R. (Newton) |
| Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Owen, Major G. | |
| Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Paling, W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Parker, J. | Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers. |
| Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Parkinson, J. A. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. | Bull, B. B. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury) | Campbell, Sir E. T. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Carver, Major W. H. |
| Anstruther-Gray, W. J. | Beit, Sir A. L. | Cary, R. A. |
| Apsley, Lord | Blaker, Sir R. | Castlereagh, Viscount |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Boulton, W. W. | Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) |
| Assheton, R. | Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) |
| Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) | Boyce, H. Leslie | Channon, H. |
| Atholl, Duchess of | Bracken, B. | Christie, J. A. |
| Baillie, Sir A. W. M. | Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Collox, Major W. P. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Brocklebank, Sir Edmund | Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. |
| Balniel, Lord | Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) | Cooper, Rt. Hn. A. Duff (W'st'r S. G'gs) |
| Barrie, Sir C. C. | Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh, W.) |
| Courthope, Col. Rt. Hon. Sir G. L. | Joel, D. J. B. | Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) |
| Cox, H. B. T. | Jones, L. (Swansea W.) | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Craven-Ellis, W. | Keeling, E. H. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Critchley, A. | Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F, C. | Lamb, Sir J. Q, | Ross, Major Sir R. D. (Londonderry) |
| Crossley, A, C. | Latham, Sir P. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Law, Sir A. J. (High Peak) | Rowlands, G. |
| Cruddas, Col. B. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S. W.) | Russell, Sir Alexander |
| Culverwell, C. T. | Leckie, J. A. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) |
| Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Salmon, Sir I. |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Salt, E. W. |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Lloyd, G. W. | Sandys, E. D. |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Loftus, P. C. | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. |
| Denville, Alfred | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. | Selley, H. R. |
| Doland, G. F. | Lyons, A. M. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Duggan, H. J. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Shepperson, Sir E. W. |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | MacAndrew, Colonel Sir C. G. | Simmonds, O. E. |
| Eastwood, J. F. | McCorquodale, M. S. | Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A |
| Ellis, Sir G. | McKie, J. H. | Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen) |
| Elliston, Capt. G. S. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. | Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) |
| Emery, J. F. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J. |
| Emrys-Evans, P. V. | Markham, S. F. | Spears, Brigadier-General E. L. |
| Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Spens, W. P. |
| Everard, W. L. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'ld) |
| Fremantle, Sir F. E. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Fyfe, D. P. M. | Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chlswick) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) |
| Gilmour, Lt -Col Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Moore, Lieut.-Col. Sir T. C. R. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Granville E. L. | Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.) | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Gridley, Sir A. B. | Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester) | Titchfield, Marquess of |
| Grigg, Sir E. W. M. | Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. | Touche, G. C. |
| Grimston, R. V. | Nall, Sir J. | Train, Sir J. |
| Gritten, W. G. Howard | Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Turton, R. H. |
| Gunston, Capt. O. W. | O'Neill, Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Guy, J. C. M. | Palmer, G. E. H. | Wallace, Capt. Rt. Hon. Euan |
| Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) | Patrick, C. M. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | Peake, O. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan | Perkins, W. R. D. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Hepworth, J. | Pickthorn, K. W. M. | Wedderburn, H. J. S. |
| Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Porritt, R. W. | Wells, S. R. |
| Higgs, W. F. | Pownall, Lt.-Col. Sir Assheton | Whiteley, Major J. P. (Buckingham) |
| Hoare, Rt. Hon. Sir S. | Procter, Major H. A. | Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. |
| Holmes, J. S. | Radford, E. A. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Womersley, Sir W. J. |
| Horsbrugh, Florence | Ramsden, Sir E. | Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Rankin, Sir R. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Hunter, T. | Rayner, Major R. H. | |
| Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Cross and Captain Dugdale. |
Question put, and agreed to.
§ Further Amendments made:
§
In page 44, line 37, at the end, insert:
(2) It shall be the duty of every district council to carry out, in the year beginning at the date of the commencement of this Act and in every 11th succeeding year after that year, an examination of every basement bakehouse in respect of which a certificate of suitability has been issued and—
516
(3) Where the district council give notice that a certificate of a basement bakehouse is to cease to have effect, the occupier may, within twenty-one days of the notice, appeal to a court of summary jurisdiction, and the court may, if it is satisfied that the bakehouse is suitable as regards the matters aforesaid, by order direct that the certificate shall continue to operate and that the bakehouse may be used as such until the next examination by the council, or may by order extend the period at the expiration of which the certificate is to cease to have effect.
§ In page 45, line 4, leave out "provisions of," and insert "prohibition of the use of basement bakehouses under."—[Sir S. Hoare.]
§ Ordered, "That further consideration of the Bill, as amended, be now adjourned."—[Captain Margesson.]
§ Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be further considered Tomorrow.