§ 59. Mr. W. H. Greenasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, whether effect can be given to the principle contained in paragraph 10 of Chapter VII of the Fourth Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service of 1914, namely, that officers engaged upon permanent work should be pensionable, in the case of the large proportion of Government messengers who are permanently employed but are at present denied pension rights?
§ The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lieut.-Colonel Colville)The hon. Member is, I fear, under a misappre- 1584 hension as to the findings of the Royal Commission of 1914 on this question. The Report of the Commission specifically recommended that only the higher grade of the messenger class should be established.
§ 60. Mr. Greenasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, whether, in view of the relatively advanced age of the small proportion of Government messengers who become established and the meagre pension to which they become entitled at the age of 65 years, he will consider implementing in their cases the recommendation contained in paragraphs (v), 43, and 44 of the Report of the Departmental Committee under the chairmanship of Colonel Sir E. Ward, Baronet, K.C.C., in 1906, to the effect that service with the Forces followed by established service in the Civil Service should be pensionable?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ColvilleThe proposal that Colour service should count towards civil pension has been repeatedly examined but successive Governments have not found it possible to adopt it, and it clearly would not be equitable to give exceptional treatment to this group of Government employés. I would invite the attention of the hon. Member to paragraphs 687 and 688 of the Report of the Royal Commission on the Civil Service (Command Paper No. 3909).
§ Sir A. KnoxWill the right hon. Gentleman state why it would not be equitable? Why should not these people have their Government service in the Army counted for pension?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ColvilleI think that my hon. and gallant Friend is under a misapprehension. When I stated that it would not be equitable to give exceptional treatment to this group, I referred only to the group mentioned in the question.
§ 61. Mr. Greenasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, whether, as the justification for the employment of unestablished staffs in the Civil Service is on the ground of fluctuations in the amount of work involved, consideration will be given to an improvement in the proportion of established messengers in order that the unestablished messengers may be solely related to the margin of fluctuations in the messengerial work?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ColvilleFluctuation in the amount of work is not the sole reason for maintaining certain sections of Civil Service staffs on an unestablished basis. As was explained by the Royal Commission on the Civil Service (1929–1931) certain staffs, including messengers, are, on the grounds of outside analogy or otherwise, employed on an unestablished basis. Under existing arrangements the messenger class is organised in two grades, of which the higher grade only, which is engaged on superior duties, is established. The relative numbers in the two grades is, therefore, determined by the duties to be performed.
§ Mr. GreenDoes not the right hon. and gallant Gentleman think that the proportion of one-sixteenth is small?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ColvilleThe numbers in the grades are determined by the nature of the duties.
Mr. AlexanderIt not the Financial Secretary aware that the growing and very large number of temporary employés in so many of the Government Departments is putting the Government among the worst employers in the country?
§ Lieut.-Colonel ColvilleThe Government's record as employers will stand comparison with that of any other employer.