HC Deb 20 July 1937 vol 326 cc2147-54

12.48 a.m.

Captain Crookshank

I beg to move, in page 12, line 35, at the end, to add: 5.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph the Board shall pay the costs (including costs of or incidental to proceedings on an application made to the Court under Part I of this Schedule) reasonably incurred by the person by whom an application for the registration of particulars in respect of a holding is duly made in giving effect in relation to that holding to the provisions of Part I of this Schedule or of the rules made thereunder relating to the rights and duties of a person by whom an application is made, and for the purposes of this provision costs so incurred by that person as a person notified, under sub-paragraph (2) (b) of paragraph 2 of this Schedule, of an application received in respect of another holding shall be deemed to have been incurred in relation to the first-mentioned holding: Provided that, if two or more applications are made in relation to the same holding, the liability of the Board under this sub-paragraph shall be limited to such a sum as would have been payable by them it a single application only had been made so however that the Board may pay costs in excess of that sum in any case in which it appears to them that the making of more than one application was justified having regard to any special circumstances. (2) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, where any facts particulars whereof are registered in respect of a holding have been ascertained from information furnished by a person notified, under sub-paragraph (2) (a) of paragraph 2 of this Schedule, of an application received in respect thereof, the Board shall pay the costs (including costs of or incidental to proceedings on an application made to the Court under Part I of this Schedule) reasonably incurred by him in giving effect in relation to that holding to the provisions of Part I of this Schedule or of the rules made thereunder relating to the rights and duties of a person so notified. (3) The Board shall not he liable to pay any such costs as aforesaid incurred either— (a) in relation to a holding in respect of which no application for the registration of particulars is duly made within the period of six months beginning as to England and Scotland respectively on the date on which notice is first published in the London Gazette and in the Edinburgh Gazette respectively of rules having been made by the Board with respect to the procedure for the making of applications, or the date on which the holding comes into existence, whichever is the later, or, in the case of a holding constituted by virtue of rules made under paragraph 2 of the First Schedule to this Act, within such extended period as may be prescribed, so however that this provision shall rot have effect as regards a holding in respect of which application is made after the expiration of the said period in a case in which it appears to the Board that sufficient cause is shown for no application having been made within the said period; or (b) in relation to a holding in the case of which it appears to the Board that there is no reasonable ground for believing that any coal hereditaments in which the holding is stated to subsist have any marketable value; or (c) by a person who has neglected to comply with any of the requirements of Part I of this Schedule or of the rules made thereunder relating to the information to be given by him, whether on the original making of the application or thereafter. The High Court shall have power on the application of a person aggrieved by a denial on the part of the Board by virtue of this sub-paragraph of liability to pay any such costs as aforesaid, to give such directions as to the matter in question as appear to the Court to be just. (4) Subject to the provisions of this paragraph, the Board shall pay the costs of or incidental to proceedings on an application made to the Court under Part I of this Schedule reasonably incurred by a person whom the Court, under sub-paragraph (6) of paragraph 2 or under that sub-paragraph as applied by sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 3 of this Schedule, directs to be made a party to the application. (5) The Court may direct that the Board shall not be liable to pay any such costs as aforesaid incurred by any party to an application made to the Court under Part I of this Schedule who appears to the Court to have made such an application or prosecuted proceedings thereon unreasonably or to have been guilty of any such unreasonable failure to agree with the Board or with any other party, or of any such negligence or default, as to disentitle him to payment of his costs. (6) The Board shall have power to enter into undertakings to pay, and to pay, any costs other than as aforesaid reasonably incurred by any person in furnishing to the Board information for the purposes of this Act. (7) Any costs that the Board are liable under or by virtue of this Part of this Schedule to pay shall, if the Board or the person entitled to payment thereof so requires, be taxed and settled by the High Court, and any apportionment required to be made for the purposes of the proviso to subparagraph (1) of this paragraph shall, if any person concerned in the apportionment so requires, be made by the High Court. This sub-paragraph shall, in its application to Scotland, have effect as if for references to the High Court there were substituted references to the Auditor of the Court of Session.

12.49 a.m.

Mr. Pritt

I beg to move, as an Amendment to the proposed Amendment, in line 22, at the end, to insert: Provided also that the Board shall not pay any costs incurred by or attributable to, nor any costs so far as they may have been increased by reason of any question as to who is the owner of any proprietary interest. The point that I want to make is with reference to the costs. The Bill provides that persons coming forward to register their proprietary interests shall have the costs of registration paid, including costs involved in their being either taken to the courts by the Board of Trade to have things cleared up or in certain instances of their going to the court themselves to get one matter or another cleared up to their own advantage or getting a decision reversed. A very great deal of objection might be taken to that, but the objection we have is on a relatively narrow point, and we put it on this footing: We assume that the owners of coal royalties have the same moral claim as the owners of other property to have their costs paid when there is compulsory purchase and acquisition. It is a big assumption, because the moral rights of various forms of property owners must vary, and I do not think I ever knew anybody who did not put the right of coal royalties pretty low in the moral scale. Yet the Government actually propose to put them higher in the moral scale in the matter of receiving costs than any other body of owners who have ever been subject to compulsory purchase or acquisition.

Why I say that is this: It is clear that in fact in one provision or another of this Bill and Schedule the question of which of two persons has a title to a particular unit of ownership is bound to arise in a certain number of cases. It is a uniform rule, which has been applied by all tribunals, that in the case of litigation between two people's claims to a piece of property which is to be acquired, costs are not to be paid by the acquiring party, whether the State, some public utility, or a municipality. There is a quite clear distinction between that and the case of acquisition because the party is having the property taken away for the benefit of the community or someone else. Where the question is which of two parties owns the property to be taken, it has always been the rule, in every form of compensation for compulsory acquisition, that they and no one else shall bear the cost of the litigation. The Bill makes it clear that the intention in the future is that so many cases—and I think there will be a substantial number—of people disputing between themselves the possession of coal royalties shall be put in a more favourable position than any have been put in before. It is utterly indefensible. It could only have emanated from a Government like this. It is almost impossible for a Government like this to defend it, and it is quite impossible for a Government like this to produce any reason for it.

12.54 a.m.

The Attorney-General

The hon. and learned Gentleman is exercised by this problem. He envisages a time when there will be a sum of compensation to be distributed, and he envisages the possibility of there being a question of whether "A" or "B" is entitled to that compensation. He is anxious that the dispute between "A" and "B" shall not be fought out at the expense of the State. That is a question which is undoubtedly very important, but it does not arise under this Bill. It has nothing whatever to do with compensation or its destination.

Mr. Silverman

Neither has the Amendment.

The Attorney-General

The Amendment has to do with disputes as to right, and the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech was related to the subject I have mentioned. This Bill deals, not with the ultimate allotment of compensation, but with the registration of the units of ownership. It is perfectly true that in deciding exactly what these units of ownership are the question of title may arise, although I do not think it will be very likely to arise very often. It is also true that the question of title may arise in identifying the question of ownership. We can, therefore, confine ourselves to that rather limited number of cases in which there is a possibility of dispute. The matter raised by the Amendment is safeguarded in this way: The applicant can only take the matter to the courts under paragraphs (2) and (4) of the Second Schedule if it arises on particulars required by the Board of Trade. Unless the Board of Trade thinks that to make a question of title a necessary particular is necessary, no dispute as to it can be taken to the courts. The Board of Trade itself will only take the matter to the court if it thinks the matter is necessary in order to identify the holdings to be registered. That safeguards the matter. As far as the other matter is concerned, here again the Board of Trade will only require the particulars necessary in order to identify the holdings, and disputes which the hon. and learned Gentleman has in mind can be left over by the Board of Trade. I doubt whether any of the particulars would be necessary for the purposes of this Bill. The Board of Trade are completely masters of the situation. I think the Committee will agree with us that this Amendment is not necessary.

12.59 a.m.

Mr. Pritt

The one thing which makes us absolutely convinced that a matter of doubt raised by this Bill exists in a far more serious form is the Government spokesman's attempt to explain it away. If nonsense is a Parliamentary word, it is utter nonsense for the Attorney-General to get up and pretend that the question of title will not arise. The Financial Memorandum is not part of the Bill, but lines one and two of it state:

The object of this Bill is to enable the Board of Trade to register particulars of the present ownership of coal … Clause 1 of the Bill is entitled "Registration of particulars of ownership," and certain matters of title which have to be dealt with are mentioned. Is it really supposed, even by this Committee, that Parliament is to be asked to pass a Bill in which the owner will come and ask for registration and supply the particulars, and that the actual register will not mention the name of the estate owner? This register is to be preserved from the gaze of Labour propaganda. Is it not absolutely futile to say that it will not have some bearing on ultimate compensation? If it has, will not the Board of Trade, even under this Government, have some regard to putting down the right owner, and in the long run, when compensation comes to be paid in a later Bill, if they bring it in, will not somebody be registered as owner, and will not his registration have some bearing on the ownership of that unit? If all these questions are to be answered, the only way in which they can be answered is by the Board of Trade, which has to determine whether the particulars are correct and to decide if they shall be registered. The Board of Trade must try to find out whether is is the right name of the owner or the wrong name, and it may be asked who is or who is not the owner. This Government is determined for the first time in history to say that not merely the cost of registration and acquisition but also the cost of settling these disputes as to who is the owner of the property to receive the compensation shall be paid out of the public pocket instead of the pocket of the interested parties. If the Board of Trade cannot decide on this question, the matter must be referred to the courts, and the courts are not cheap, and all that is to be paid out of the public pocket again. And then the Attorney-General gets up and says this Bill has nothing to do with ownership.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 76; Noes, 163.

Division No. 302.] AYES. [1.3 a.m.
Adamson, W. M. Barr, J. Benn, Rt. Hon. W. W.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Batey, J. Buchanan, G.
Banfield, J. W. Bellenger, F. J. Burke, W. A.
Daggar, G. Hills, A. (Pontefract) Pritt, D. N.
Dalton, H. Holdsworth, H. Ritson, J.
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) Hollins, A. Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) Jagger, J. Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Dobbie, W. Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) Seely, Sir H. M.
Ede, J. C. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Sexton, T. M.
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Jones, Sir H. Haydn (Merioneth) Silverman, S. S.
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Kelly, W. T. Simpson, F. B.
Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) Kirby, B. V. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Kirkwood, D. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Foot, D. M. Logan, D. G. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Frankel, D. Lunn, W. Sorensen, R. W.
George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) McEntee, V. La T. Stephen, C.
Gibson, R. (Greenock) MacLaren, A. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Grenfell, D. R. Mainwaring, W. H. Tinker, J. J.
Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Maxton, J. Watson, W. McL.
Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) Messer, F. Westwood, J.
Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Hackney, S.) Wilkinson, Ellen
Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Noel-Baker, P. J. Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Harris, Sir P. A. Oliver, G. H. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Paling, W.
Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Price, M. P. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves.
NOES.
Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Peake, O.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.) Erskine-Hill, A. G. Peat, C. U.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Fildes, Sir H. Petherick, M.
Aske, Sir R. W. Findlay, Sir E. Plugge, Capt. L. F.
Assheton, R. Fleming, E. L. Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Astor, Hon. W. W. (Fulham, E.) Fox, Sir G. W. G. Porritt, R. W.
Atholl, Duchess of Furness, S. N. Procter, Major H. A.
Baillie, Sir A. W. M. Fyfe, D. P. M. Radford, E. A.
Balniel, Lord Ganzoni, Sir J. Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Beamish, Rear-Admiral T. P. H. Gridley, Sir A. B. Ramsbotham, H.
Beauchamp, Sir B. C. Grigg, Sir E. W. M. Rankin, Sir R.
Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) Grimston, R. V. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Bernays, R. H. Guest, Lieut.-Colonel H. (Drake) Rayner, Major R. H.
Bossom, A. C. Guinness, T. L. E. B. Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Boulton, W. W. Gunston, Capt. D. W. Reid, W. Allan (Derby)
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Guy, J. C. M. Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Boyce, H. Leslie Hannon, Sir P. J. H. Ropner, Colonel L.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge)
Brocklebank, Sir Edmund Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- Rowlands, G.
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) Royds, Admiral P. M. R.
Bull, [...]. B. Higgs, W. F. Salmon, Sir I.
Burghley, Lord Holmes, J. S. Salt, E. W.
Butcher, H. W. Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Scott, Lord William
Cartland, J. R. H. Horsbrugh, Florence Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Cary, R. A. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Smith, L. W. (Hallam)
Castlereagh, Viscount Hunter, T. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Cayzer, Sir H. R. (Portsmouth, S.) James, Wing-Commands' A. W. H. Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Cazalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) Joel, D. J. B. Southby, Commander Sir A. R. J.
Channon, H. Jones, L. (Swansea W.) Spens, W. P.
Christie, J. A. Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose) Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'I'd)
Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Strickland, Captain W. F.
Clydesdale, Marquess of Lamb, Sir J. Q. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Sutcliffe, H.
Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. Liddall, W. S. Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Conant, Captain R. J. E. Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Thomas, J. P. L.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Lloyd, G. W. Thomson, Sir J. D. W.
Cox, H. B. T. Loftus, P. C. Titchfield, Marquess of
Craven-Ellis, W. Lyons, A. M. Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L.
Critchley, A. Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) Turton, R. H.
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. MoCorquodale, M. S. Wakefield, W. W.
Cross, R. H. MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Crowder, J F. E. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Warrender, Sir V.
Davies, C. (Montgomery) McKie, J. H. Wedderburn, H. J. S.
Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) Maitland, A. Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
De Chair, S. S. Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord
Dodd, J. S. Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Doland, G. F. Maxwell, Hon. S. A. Womersley, Sir W. J.
Dorman-Smith, Major Sir R. H. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. Wood, Hon. C. I. C.
Drewe, C. Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) Wragg, H.
Dugdale, Captain T. L. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) Wright, Squadron-Leader J. A. C.
Eastwood, J. F. Moreing, A. C. Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Eckersley, P. T. Morrison, Rt. Hon. W. S. (Cirencester)
Edmondson, Major Sir J. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J. TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Ellis, Sir G. Neven-Spence, Major B. H. H. Captain Waterhouse and Mr.
Elmley, Viscount Nicolson, Hon. H. G. Munro.
Emery, J. F. Palmer, G. E. H.

Proposed words there added.

Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Bill reported with Amendments; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.