§ 1.5 a.m.
Miss WardI beg to move, in page 2, line 15, at the end, to insert:
and the said Commissioners shall, in accordance with the recommendations of the advisory committee to be appointed as hereinafter set forth, notify to such persons on application the most suitable forms of industrial activity from the point of view of national self-sufficiency.Would it be in order for me to discuss on this Amendment the whole principle of my new Clause, because if I can persuade the Minister to accept this Amendment I can then just simply move my new Clause. This Amendment is dependent on the acceptance of the new Clause. If you would allow me to widen the scope of the discussion I think it would save time.
§ The ChairmanYes. I do not think it is really possible for the hon. Lady, or at least she would find it difficult to discuss this particular Amendment without reference to the new Clause. If this Amendment is accepted the new Clause will probably follow as a matter of course.
§ Mr. ShinwellIs it your intention to call the Amendments standing in the names of the hon. Members for Colchester (Mr. O. Lewis) and Huddersfield (Mr. Mabane).
§ The ChairmanI was informed that they did not desire to move them.
Miss WardI apologise to the Committee for having to move this Amendment at this time of night, but I see no reason why we should be expected to listen to all the Amendments moved by hon. Members belonging to the Opposition and not be in a position to state our own cases. I believe the proposal which I have to enunciate in this Amendment contains one or two points of interest which might relate to the prosperity of the Special Areas in future. I would first, however, refer to the speech which was made by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Wedderburn) in which he said
Take, for example, an industry which wished to establish itself at Gateshead. If that industry would otherwise have gone to Greater London, and if it is obviously going to Gateshead at some inconvenience, and if it is also the kind of undertaking which would 2083 be suitable to that district, there, I suggest, would be an obvious case in which the Commissioner would be justified in stretching these concessions to their greatest extent. But supposing it were an industry which if it had not gone to Gateshead, would have established itself, let us say, in Middlesbrough, which is not within the boundaries of the Special Areas, and supposing it was going to Gateshead in order to get these advantages with a view to competing with similar industries in Middlesbrough, there, I suggest, would be a case in which these concessions could not be given.It seems to me that until to-night that statement in the Under-Secretary's speech has caused very little comment by hon. Members on this side of the House. It does seem from that statement that we may find ourselves in years to come in some very great difficulty in deciding which industries should receive concessions under the Bill and which industries are going to be debarred from receiving concessions. It seems to me that we should find ourselves in a very much stronger position if we could go out, so to speak, to try to establish in the Special Areas industries which, up to the moment, are not operating in this country at all. For this purpose I have put down my Amendment. I have tried on one or two occasions to encourage the President of the Board of Trade to allow me to obtain information from the Board of Trade as to what are the things which are being imported into this country at the present time for which no provision for manufacture is made here, and could be economically manufactured in this country. The President of the Board of Trade has always taken up the attitude that the establishment of new industries is primarily a matter for the manufacturers.There we come across a very great weakness, because if a manufacturer has decided on a special industry which widens the range of articles he is producing, he has then made up his mind where he wants to establish the industry. It is going to be very much easier to persuade people to go to the Special Areas if you can persuade them that by establishing new industries in the Special Areas, very few difficulties will be raised of obtaining concessions under this Bill. The whole purpose of this Amendment is directed towards establishing the machinery to try to ascertain which industries might reasonably, and will be, established in the Special Areas.
2084 I think that there is a very great opening for the setting up of an advisory committee to consider what kinds of industries could very well be established. It seems to me that we are offering all kinds of concessions, all of which I most heartily support, and the great difficulty up to the present has been not the offering of valuable sites, not the offering of concessions, but the lack of industries, and so I want to set alongside the concessions which can be obtained in this Bill a chance of establishing some machinery which shall have as its primary object the suggestion of the sort of industries which may be established in the Special Areas, and the suggesting of them before they have settled down in any other part of the country. If I might refer to the establishment of a new industry on Tyneside recently, I would point out that Messrs. Swan, Hunter and Wigham Richardson are just in the process of establishing a new plywood factory. I understand that until the present time plywood has been imported, at any rate for use on Tyneside, from Germany. There does not seem any reason why plywood should not have been manufactured in this country for a long time past, but it has only just been established on Tyneside. It has occurred to me that there must be a considerable number of industries which might quite reasonably be established in this country, which would not be in competition with any other industry in the whole of the country.
I have been at considerable trouble to try to get the necessary information to support my contention, but dealing with Government departments, dealing with the Board of Trade, dealing with the Overseas Trade Department and dealing with the Federation of British Industries is not a very easy matter. Consequently I have had to devise the idea of putting the onus on an advisory committee within the province of this Bill, and I hope my right hon. Friend will consider my suggestion favourably. It has been indicated to me, for instance, that you cannot buy unbreakable domestic table glass. It seems to me that it might be worth while considering the possibilities of that in this country. Again, I am told that the production of products from food in relation to canning from starch and glucose, and a variety and range of subjects are worth consideration.
2085 It has been extraordinarily difficult to find any way of ascertaining where the industrial gaps are and how it would be possible to fill those gaps. I know that my right hon. Friend is going to say that the Ministry of Labour has industrial officers who could address themselves to that particular proposition. On the whole I am not satisfied that industrial officers without power are going to have a very easy row to hoe. We have had appeals addressed by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Labour and appeals of all kinds have been addressed to industrialists with very little result and I think we want something stronger than just an industrial officer attached to the Ministry of Labour with, so far as I understand, no power of co-ordination. I have raised the question of co-ordination between Government Departments before, and I am now going to address one specific part to my right hon. Friend. I think he knows, without my emphasising it, how very much I admire and appreciate the work he does, but I would say there is a very great lack of coordination between Government Departments. I know that the right hon. Gentleman does not allow himself to be pinned down. There is a very great deal of cleverness in a Minister who knows when to be pinned and when not to be pinned. I want to know tonight before my right hon. Friend answers the case I am putting to him, whether he has consulted the President of the Board of Trade, the Secretary to the Department of Overseas Trade and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence, because, after all, there are essential things which must be manufactured in this country in the interests of the Defence Services.
In the range of products I think there is reasonable ground for a thorough investigation so that these things could be established in the Special Areas before we start any more fights between the Highlands versus South Wales. I can imagine that the Minister will put up a good argument against accepting this Amendment, but I should like to know whether he has consulted all these outside Departments and then I would know whether there is real co-operation or not. I should like the machinery to be established whereby you would have the textile industry, the iron and steel industry, the food production people, the engineering people, the glass manufacturers, the electric furnace 2086 produce manufacturers and the whole range of industries, the manufacturing chemists, the paper trade, the timber trade and the shipbuilding industry, and I should like an expert for each single industry to concentrate on finding out where the industrial gaps in these industries are, and when they have found where, if any—and I am speaking without technical knowledge and have made myself quite sufficiently objectionable to Government Departments already—I should like to see a representative of all this variety of industries concentrating on the one part of filling those industrial gaps by establishing those industries inside the Special Areas.
It seems to me that that opens up a very wide field. If you were to find the necessary goods which were to be manufactured and then go to the federated industries and say "Here is a list of these things which could reasonably be manufactured in this country; would you make arrangements to see they are manufactured, and we suggest first of all that you should start at sites in the Special Areas," then I think that those industrialists would find it very difficult to withstand my right hon. Friend. As I understand the value of this Bill, we are not going to attract to the Special Areas the big propositions. The concessions which are offered in the Bill are of no interest to people like Imperial Chemicals Industries or Vickers Armstrong, or Boots or anybody like that. They are going to attract only the small industries, and I suggest that in order to try and do so we should establish some machinery which will suggest to responsible people how these industries could best be established in the Special Areas.
§ 1.21 a.m.
§ Mr. E. BrownI think the hon. Lady will realise that she has really given the answer to her own speech. She has discussed this with me and with other Ministers several times, as she says. The point is one which came to her own notice and she has told us how it arose. It arose from a firm in her own constitutency having to use certain materials not manufactured in this country. Such a committee which would need to have expert knowledge and the time to carry out the work could then ask the industries in this country to undertake that manufacture. What the hon. Lady is asking for is some arrangement which will cover an enor- 2087 mously wide sweep of ground. She wants an advisory committee which will be able to survey the whole field of industry, find out all the things we do not make here and then decide which they can recommend. The Amendment does not go so far as that, but the only people affected would be those concerned with the application for financial assistance to the Special Commissioners. The people who make applications for grants will already have made up their minds as to the kind of undertakings they want to establish before they ask for grants.
The hon. Lady has also asked if there is close cooperation between the various Departments. I can assure her that on all these vital matters there is the most close association between all the Departments—the Board of Trade, the Overseas Trade Department, the Ministry for the Coordination of Defence, the Services and the Ministry of Labour. There is constant liaison, and a whole network of sub-committees to deal with these particular problems. If there is any process concerned with defence which we come to the conclusion is needed, we can undertake it without any such arrangement as she suggests. What she asks for is a committee to examine and consider, analyse and report. I ask her to consider the burden of work which that would put on the committee. It would have to go round the whole circumference of all the materials which are not manufactured in this country. The hon. Lady has discussed this at great length with the Board of Trade, which is much more interested than the Ministry of Labour. I ask her to consider the facts. She can be assured that if such a thing were considered desirable, the Board of Trade and the other Departments would do it over the whole range of industries or in regard to any particular industry on which they might recommend action.
Miss WardThe Board of Trade have not been in the least sympathetic. They said it was not part of their business and that they were not interested. It was only when I said that I would bring the subject forward day by day until they were sick of me, and they did not know what to do, that I got an interview with the 2088 Parliamentary Secretary, who was extremely sympathic and very kind.
§ Mr. E. BrownI am going to give the reasons why they considered it impracticable. The trade statistics of the United Kingdom contain an elaborate analysis of imports of manufactured goods, but they are not in sufficient detail always to distinguish between the processes for goods falling under the same general description, and for that very reason the Department is not able to provide any list of goods not extensively produced in this country. Still less is the Department equipped, and still less would the suggested small advisory committee be equipped, to indicate which particular lines of production United Kingdom manufacturers would be able to embark upon with reasonable prospects of success. The committee would have to depend upon authoritative information, and this could only be givers by technical experts and business men, possessing the most intimate knowledge of each particular item. Industrialists are, no doubt, better equipped than any Government Department to attempt such a task. I understand the hon. Lady has in mind a small advisory committee of about five members, but it is clear that to analyse, examine and report on even one process about which we had no previous knowledge inside this country would be a formidable undertaking unless one got a specially selected body of experts on that subject.
It is for these reasons, and for others with which I do not wish to detain the Committee, that I think this proposal is impracticable. I believe the Board of Trade have informed the hon. Lady of three things: first, that to attempt to do this throughout the circumference of industry, as is her laudable desire, would be impracticable; secondly, that to ask any small advisory committee to undertake the task of selecting such processes as would have a reasonable prospect of success would be to ask something which such a committee could not do; and, thirdly that this is a question of defence. I assure the hon. Lady that there is complete co-ordination between the Departments and any arrangements which any of the Departments require to have made by the Board of Trade they could under- 2089 take under their own powers. I must ask the Committee to reject the Amendment.
§ 1.31 a.m.
§ Sir S. CrippsI understand this is a further stage of the hon. Lady's technique in the role of what might be called "the importunate widow." There was one phrase of hers with which I was in complete sympathy, and that was when she spoke of being unable to pin down the right hon. Gentleman. It brought to my recollection the efforts made in earlier years to pin down struggling butterflies on a board, and I wondered what sort of butterfly she envisaged the right hon. Gentleman as being. I certainly think it was not a Red Admiral, probably it was the Common Blue. This Amendment seems to have the germ of an excellent idea in it, but not to be appropriate in the place in which it is sought to introduce it into the Bill. This Clause, as I understand it, contemplates people going to the Commissioner for assistance who have already made up their minds as to what they are going to do, and getting assistance in doing it. But that does not mean that there are not two very vital and important points raised in this Amendment which merit the fullest discussion by this Committee. The first one is contained in the words "from the point of view of national self-sufficiency." It is vital to consider whether we are going to have an economic policy in this country, which will depend for its success upon national self-sufficiency, and on that I should like to make a few remarks, especially in view of the present international situation.
National self-sufficiency is what has now come to be called autarchy in a number of other countries and has been pretty universally condemned by most people in this country. Probably Members on both sides of the Committee point, for example, to Germany, or Russia, or other countries as examples of national self-sufficiency. I simply mention Germany because it is so often spoken of at the present moment and because the people there have made such a very big attempt to get this system of autarchy established. Most people regard it as a bad system in other countries because of the reflection of any such attempt on their own trade. Were the world now to practise national self-sufficiency we should find ourselves, instead of having an expanding trade internationally, with 2090 a diminishing trade internationally, which would tend more and more to create those very difficulties which are, perhaps, so largely responsible to-day for the unstable and uncertain condition of world economics.
Therefore, I hope that the right hon. Gentleman, at some stage of the Debate upon this Amendment, will be able to tell us whether this idea of national self-sufficiency is one towards which the present Government are working. We have had various import duty regulations, and a tariff taxation which has been gradually built up over a series of years, all, of course, tending to give the impression, at least, that some form of self-sufficiency was being aimed at. The Committee must bear in mind that in this country least of all, perhaps, are we able to aim at national self-sufficiency, because I am sure the hon. Lady has overlooked the agricultural situation. I cannot understand how in a country with our present population and our present area of land and system of cultivation it is possible to contemplate national self-sufficiency. I myself have given up the habit of eating meat and it would not matter to me if no more meat were imported into the country, but if we were to start to make ourselves nationally self-sufficient in beef and mutton and lamb a great deal would be said in Australia, New Zealand and the Argentine as regards our export trade. And as the areas with which the hon. Lady is particularly concerned are areas which are suffering by reason of the lack of export trade, it seems to me that her policy is suicidal for those very areas.
Suppose that instead of making this suggestion that there should be a survey of the country in order to accomplish autarchy or national self-sufficiency she had made the suggestion that there should be a survey of the country in order to ascertain the facts as regards industries and employment in this country far more accurately than can be done at present; then, certainly, I should have been inclined to give very strong support to her suggestion. This raises the second important point. The new Clause which we are discussing in association with the Amendment suggests that the Board of Trade should appoint an advisory committee consisting of not more than five and not less than three to examine, analyse and report on the nature of those 2091 industries which, owing to the absence of development in this country, could be most suitably established in the Special Areas. The hon. Lady has stated that she has been unable to obtain information from the Board of Trade or other Government Departments as to what these industries are. Indeed, the right hon. Gentleman has confessed that that information is not available even to the Board of Trade, who have far fuller statistics than anybody who reads the statistics issued by Government Departments.
This country is one of the truly industrial countries in the world but it is, I believe, far behind in the issue of statistical reports. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can tell us whether this country was even represented at the conference on this subject held in Canada, I believe last year. In Canada they have developed a remarkable statistical service, I think the best anywhere in the British Empire. One of the first things that President Roosevelt did when he embarked upon His abortive attempts to revive industry in America was to start to make a statistical service, so that he might be able to enter upon some form of planning industry. In all countries it has been found absolutely impossible to proceed with any form of orderly planning, whether capitalist or any other kind, until there is available basic information which can only be obtained by a co-ordinated statistical office of the central Government. I had the opportunity, when I was last in Canada, of discussing the whole problem of Government statistics with the extremely able head of the Canadian Statistical Department. He said he was appalled at the lack of material available in this country, considering the vast importance of our industry and the very sort of difficulty with which we are now confronted—the difficulty with which the hon. lady has been faced in attempting to put up a constructive suggestion for the appeasement of an evil all of us want to solve, a difficulty very largely arising from the fact that none of us, including the Minister, knows the facts as regards the industry of this country.
If this had been a proposal to start a new statistical department in this country, in order to ascertain the basic facts, so that both the Government and other 2092 people might have an opportunity of making valuable suggestions based upon these facts, then certainly I should have been very much in favour of this Amendment. I do not desire to labour this point, because of the late hour. We ought to be very grateful to the hon. lady for raising two matters of prime importance the matter of national self-sufficiency, upon which I hope the Minister will give the views of the Government, and this matter of statistical information, which is of vital importance to everyone in this country who is really going to tackle from the bottom the whole problem of the organisation and planning of our industry.
§ 1.43 a.m.
§ Mr. EdeIt was a great pity that the hon. Lady should have made an unwarranted attack upon the Opposition by alleging that the Committee are sitting listening to Amendment after Amendment moved by the Opposition. Unfortunately, we have not yet succeeded in finding an Amendment which has passed the Chair. We have spent the whole of the evening discussing amendments moved by members who are nominally supporters of the Government. Unfortunately, progress has been delayed by the gross and glaring incompetence of the Minister, as evidenced by the fact that the hon. Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Assheton) had to get up and tell us that the point had been completely obscured by the Minister's explanation, though the point was exceedingly simple and he could elucidate it. Was that a hint, in view of forthcoming Government changes, that he can do things in a way which would better entitle him to sit on the Treasury bench than the Minister? That did not lead to a recrudescence of speeches from the Opposition, but the hon. Members for King's Norton (Mr. Cartland) and Sunderland (Mr. Furness) had to get up to ask further questions. It is not the Opposition who have been keeping this Committee sitting. My last train went at 12.16 a.m. and my next does not go until 5.46. I was hoping, until Government members started their Amendments, that I should catch the 12.16 train. I regret that the hon. Lady who represents a constituency opposite to mine on Tyneside should have made a speech detrimental to the southern bank of the Tyne. My constituency imports timber.
§ Sir Irving AlberyThe hon. Member is always most interesting, but has this anything to do with the Amendment?
§ The ChairmanI was patiently waiting to see.
§ Mr. EdeMy preliminary remarks may have been somewhat extended though I was only following the example of the hon. Lady, but I do not want the hon. Member for Gravesend (Sir I. Albery) to think we shall reach the place which is the name of his constituenecy before I reach the end of my speech. The hon Lady mentioned the manufacture of plywood as a specific example of what had actually been done on the lines she instanced. She said that a firm of great repute on Tyneside had been able to introduce the manufacture of that product into this country, and suggested that the example might be followed. I really wanted to point out that the importation of plywood is a matter of considerable importance to my constituency, because not merely is there work in importing this plywood but in producing the necessary goods which are to pay for it. No foreign supplier of plywood will send it to firms in my constituency unless assured that something goes back to pay for it.
I want to deal with this question of self-sufficiency. The policy of the Government has reduced the arrangements of the port I represent to a state of great chaos. Self-sufficiency has meant the imposition of a very large number of duties, including those referred to by the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) on beef and veal. A substantial amount is imported into my constituency, so much, indeed, that recently the bonded warehouses were overflowing with cases of bully beef. A firm of importers were asked by the Customs authorities to remove the bully beef so that fresh supplies could be admitted. They were charged 10 per cent. They sold this beef and passed on the to per cent. They were then informed that they should have been charged 20 per cent., and they regretted that they were unable to pass that on to the consumer. I have applied to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury and he has declined to do anything to assist me in this matter. What is the use of talking about national self-sufficiency when one of the great ports has already been brought to a state of chaos? We, as the Opposition, have no desire to keep 2094 any of the supporters of the Government here. If they will leave the whole of this business to us we will undertake to provide them with a Bill which will really be a credit to them and a monument of what a Socialist party could do if it were not merely in office but in power. Therefore, I hope the hon. Lady will realise that it is not the wiles of the Opposition in designing Amendments to the Bill which have, unfortunately, kept her here until this hour of the morning. We cannot support her Amendment, but we thank her for the opportunity of raising many matters which did not seem at first sight very vital to this part of the Bill.
§ 1.51 a.m.
§ Mr. BevanI was surprised to hear the Minister reject the Amendment because it was too ambitious. I was surprised, because I had an opportunity of discussing an idea analagous to this with Sir Malcolm Stewart before he resigned. I remember making a suggestion to him in his office at Broadway Buildings that one of the contributions he could make towards the solving of the problem of the distressed areas was the establishment of a bureau of information in London and that this bureau could be established under the aegis of the President of the Board of Trade. I was happy to see in his report afterwards that he included that as one of his recommendations, but I have not seen any evidence of the Government proposing to act upon that recommendation. I believe that that recommendation is on all fours with the Amendment that has been moved by the hon. Lady and is in accordance with the substance of the new Clause which she will probably move later on some other day when we reach that part of the Bill.
It seems to me that that proposal is one which ought to commend itself to the Minister of Labour. It is very valuable as the hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) has pointed out, that this country should have more precise information as to the distribution of industry in Great Britain and in relation to the industry of this country with other countries. It is very obvious that it is not possible for the hon. Lady to have her project properly carried out to find out what industries exist in other countries that can properly be established in Great Britain, until we first find out what 2095 industries exist in Great Britain. That is precisely the information that the Board of Trade has not got. We have had no great industrial survey in this country and we are behind most industrial nations in the world in this respect. This is a matter of the greatest possible importance, because many of us have from time to time attempted to direct the attention of the country to the redistribution of the industrial population which has been taking place since the War.
That problem has been discovered by hon. Members opposite some little time ago as though it was a novel discovery. I remember having a conversation with the right hon. J. H. Thomas who, at that time, was appointed Lord Privy Seal in the Labour Government. Being a young Member of Parliament and being innocent and credulous, I thought he had serious intentions towards his job. I approached him about that time—in 1929—and suggested to him that one of the problems that was going to face this country was the drift of industry from North and West to South and South-East, and that what he should do was to ask Parliament for powers to make it necessary for an industry involving capital expenditure of more than about £1,000 to obtain a licence either from the President of the Board of Trade, or from the Office of Works or any Government Department established for that purpose, so that the Government might be able to bring all potential manufacturers to one common place where they could be advised as to where they could establish industry to the best advantage of the nation. It was too much at that time to recommend that he should have power to order industry, as we were a minority Government and we could only suggest inducements. It might have been possible then to have that central information bureau and to have been able to advise manufacturers what land was available, what railway facilities could be provided, and for the Ministry of Transport to be able to build roads in order to establish an industry where it was socially desirable to do so, and no doubt a good many industrial developments in Great Britain in the last seven or eight years which at least could have given employment in substitution for employment in the Special Areas could 2096 have been provided for. Unfortunately, that recommendation did not commend itself to the right hon. Gentleman, who was engaged at that time in getting a crick in his neck from looking for trade recovery round the corner.
If you want to find out what industries exist in other countries that can be established in this country it is necessary first of all to make a survey of the industries that are here. I understand the Minister suggested that this is too ambitious a task to ask the President of the Board of Trade or some Government committee to secure information on. I am astonished to find that that is so. I should have thought it is one of the prerequisites for dealing with this problem that information of that kind should be collected and be available in some Government department. Of course, one cannot suggest it now and one would be out of order in doing so, but after information of the kind had been collected and if the House had been in possession of that information it would then be necessary to force would-be manufacturers to apply for a licence in order that that information might be made available to them. Having made that survey, which I am sure that hon. Lady would agree would be an accomplishment, we should then be able to know what our resources were and having found out that industries in other industrial nations were should then find out what industries we could have established here. There might be some Members who think this might be absolutely unnecessary information for the Government to have, for they believe that this could be left to private industry, and if there were industries in other parts of the world that could profitably be established in Britain, the information would come to some one of them who would establish the industry. I am quite sure there is not art hon. Member in any part of the House who would seriously advance that contention. I have had experience in the last few years, like all my hon. Friends who have been trying to establish new industries in the Special Areas, which work quite well in other countries, and which could be established in this country without doing any violence at all to the division of labour and without interfering with existing industries.
We have had the instance of calcium carbide. It is only produced in small 2097 quantities, I think even negligible quantities, in this country. We know this and I have it on the highest authority that calcium carbide is being brought into this country at anything from £5 a ton more than it could be produced at in this country. Here is a perfectly profitable industry which could quite easily have been established in this country many years ago but which is not being established simply because of the insularity of some of the people in this country. It might have been possible if that knowledge had been in the possession of a Government Committee and sufficiently advertised, and brought to the notice of those enterprising gentlemen in the City who are always looking around for nest-eggs of this sort, and it might have been posible to stimulate the establishment of an industry of that kind in this country some time ago. If such information had been made available by a Government committee that committee could then suggest to the would-be enterpriser that if he would establish an industry of that kind in Great Britain it might be established in a distressed area. I am sure that hon. Members can think of other industries which could be established in Great Britain.
The Amendment of the hon. Lady the Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) has suffered a disadvantage in being brought in at a time of day when hon. Members are not ready to give it serious consideration. When Amendments are brought forward at this time of the morning hon. Members are apt to regard them as a means of prolonging the Debate. If this Amendment had been brought forward at seven-thirty in the evening instead of at this hour it would have stimulated interest in all parts and we should have had an interesting discussion. I hope the right hon. Gentleman has not said the last word on this matter. It is a good idea in embryo. We all know that if a committee of this sort is set up, whose function it is to obtain information about domestic or other affairs it often sticks on, and if so, we must conceivably know a little more about the topography of industry in this industry. It is one of the most ironic commentaries on this Government and on private enterprise that here we are discussing this morning, after many years of discussing it, a problem arising out of mal-distribution of Indus 2098 trial enterprise, and at this moment we have an hon. Member of this House making a suggestion at this late hour that we must inform ourselves now what industries we have and may be able to establish.
§ 2.6 a.m.
Mr. J. J. DavidsonIt is with much of the same regret that I make an attempt to deal with this particular Clause and I want to assure hon. Members and right hon. Members that if it were possible, I would willingly defer my own remarks until later, but for the very grave national issue that has been raised in the hon. lady's Amendment. I would ask the Minister of Labour to keep in mind in discussing this matter of an advisory committee the very many pieces of advice which he has received from local authorities all over the country. The hon. lady must remember when suggesting that it would be beneficial for the Government or the Minister of Labour himself to receive advice on the very many industries in the country, that local authorities all over the country, on this very same question, have been continually advising the Minister of Labour and the Department of the Secretary of State for Scotland on the needs and requirements of local areas all over the country. If I may for a moment refer to the position of Glasgow, the Minister of Labour himself knows that in Glasgow the civic authorities have continually brought to his notice the terrible poverty and distress, and reason after reason as to why Glasgow should be scheduled as a special area. We have in Glasgow many different industries—
The Deputy-ChairmanI hardly think that Glasgow would be affected whether this Amendment were passed or not.
Mr. DavidsonThe point I was trying to make was that the hon. Lady suggested that an advisory committee should be appointed and I was trying to lay before the House the advice which the Minister of Labour had received on the condition of industries in this country.
§ Mr. StephenFurther to that point of order, I should like to point out that Glasgow would be very much affected, because the Lanarkshire and Renfrew-shire Special Areas send a lot of people into Glasgow.
The Deputy-ChairmanWhether that advisory is established or not, it would still be limited to the Special Areas.
§ Mr. StephenWith all respect this Amendment will have an effect on the Special Areas. If it has an effect on the Special Areas it will have an effect on the Special Areas around Glasgow and those Special Areas, because they are not being properly dealt with, are responsible for a lot of people coming into Glasgow, constituting a difficult problem for the Glasgow Corporation. Consequently, I say there is the indirect influence on Glasgow arising from the way in which the Government has handled the Special Areas around Glasgow. I think my hon. Friend was seeking to complain, as a Member representing a Glasgow constituency, as to how this was affecting Glasgow as the result of the bad treatment of the Special Areas.
§ Sir S. CrippsFurther to that point of Order. I would respectfully point out that in the suggested Clause, the proposed examination, analysis and report is into the nature of these industries in respect of which there is an absence of development in this country. That means the entire country and not merely the Special Areas. I respectfully suggest here it is advisable to set up a body which will analyse all the industries of the country first, and thereafter make recommendations as to whether certain businesses, in such places as Glasgow, for instance, should be encouraged in the Special Areas.
The Deputy-ChairmanIf the hon. Member will read the words of the Amendment where they are proposed to come in he will see they are governed by the beginning words of the Clause—
for the purpose of inducing persons to establish an industrial undertaking in any of the special areas.
§ Sir S. CrippsI was dealing with a matter which your predecessor in the Chair told us we were to follow, which is the new Clause on page 1044. We were, by the consent of the Committee and the instructions of the Chair, discussing that new Clause together with the Amendment which you have just mentioned. The reference I was making was to the new Clause and not the Amendment.
The Deputy-ChairmanOf course, it is obvious that if the Amendment is not carried the new Clause cannot be moved.
Mr. DavidsonI was discussing the advice which Glasgow had submitted to the Minister and to other Members of the Government. The Clause, if amended in the way proposed, would read:
and the said Commissioners shall, in accordance with the recommendations of the Advisory Committee to be appointed as hereinafter set forth.Then it states:if the Minister of Labour, upon representations made to him is satisfied as respects any area, not being or forming part of the Special Area.That brings in the area of Glasgow which is not as yet scheduled as a Special Area. I am arguing that this section shall apply to the appointment of an advisory committee, as suggested by the hon. Lady. Therefore, with great respect to the ruling of the Chair, I submit that I was perfectly in order in discussing that, and in pointing out that any advisory committee set up with regard to industry could coordinate their efforts in submitting advice to the Minister, with the industrial advice that the hon. Lady desires placed before the Government. I was rather surprised when I heard the right hon. Gentleman give such an emphatic: assurance that there was now in operation a co-ordination of effort between the various Ministers of the Crown. I think hon. Members will, generally speaking, agree that up-to-date, at least, the House has seen very little effect of this co-ordinated effort of the various Departments. I have constantly received answers to questions on the subject of co-operation of effort between the Minister of Agriculture and the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defence as to when the Government were going to start making some co-ordinated effort with regard to Scottish agriculture. We all know perfectly well that up-to-date we have merely had pious phrases and promises from the Minister, and we have not seen anything of this co-ordinated effort to which the right hon. Gentleman referred.I very much regret that the Clause suggested by the hon. Lady stops short of the question of national self-sufficiency, because I believe that this advisory committee could do a very great work if the hon. Lady had made a suggestion that 2101 it should be extended not only to national self-sufficiency but to a guaranteed national equality of distribution. That would have been a point with which I am sure hon. Members on the other benches would have fully agreed and would have been willing to press to a Division, because we must recognise that a committee operating merely for the purpose of obtaining self-sufficiency in the country and not carrying on that task to the point of a nationally equal distribution of production would be failing in its duty and would be creating still more acute unemployment all over the country.
I regret very much that the Clause has stopped short of that. I do not know whether the hon. lady is afraid of equal distribution and the national self-sufficiency that we should have from this advisory committee, or not, but I suggest that if an advisory committee of this kind were set up, cooperating with the local authorities, we could then have a Minister of Labour who was fully informed of what was required all over the country. For instance, the advisory committee would surely never suggest that the textile industry should be set up in the City of Glasgow, when there are so many distressed areas in other parts of the country with the equipment and factories for the textile industry already there. But the advisory committee could and would advise that as far as Glasgow is concerned many other industries that have been in and around Glasgow could be reinstated and assisted still further, so that the question with which the Glasgow Corporation is faced today, namely, meeting an ever-increasing burden of unemployment and poor law relief, would be solved. By the setting up of this advisory committee, acting in conjunction with local authorities, the position of the Glasgow Corporation would be made very much easier, and the Glasgow authorities would not be facing the responsibilities which ought to have been long ago accepted by the Government itself of meeting another one million pounds extra poor law relief.
§ Mr. StephenYes, it does.
Mr. DavidsonWith all respect, as I pointed out, so many people are coming in from the Special Areas and getting employment in Glasgow, with the result 2102 that there are many people in Glasgow who are unable to get employment, and so have been thrown on to poor law relief.
Mr. DavidsonI was trying to make the point that this advisory committee, if set up, could co-operate with the local authorities because of their great knowledge of industry and because of their knowledge in regard to setting up appropriate industries in the various local situations. By so co-operating they would protect local authorities or any other authorities from being landed in the mess that the Government has obviously caused by their ineptitude in the past in Glasgow and other places.
The Deputy-ChairmanThe Committee was set up to advise on the establishment of certain industries in Special Areas. They could not advise either for or against the statutory position in Glasgow.
Mr. DavidsonThe Bill states that the local advisory committee would be set up to deal with the question, not of particular Special Areas, but of areas that the Minister of Labour himself was of the opinion were suffering from severe unemployment.
The Deputy-ChairmanOrder. That is exactly what it would not do. If the hon. Member will look at the hon. Lady's proposed new Clause, he will notice that it is limited to the Special Areas, and this Amendment as moved is also limited to the Special Areas. In no circumstances could be it connected with the labour Clause in the Bill.
Mr. DavidsonMight I suggest that it deals in the Clause with the recommendations of the advisory committee to be appointed "as hereinafter set forth", and I am dealing with exactly what "as hereinafter set forth" means.
The Deputy-ChairmanThe hon. Gentleman is quite incorrect. "Hereinafter set forth" means the proposed new Clause of the hon. Lady, which is itself limited to the Special Areas. The hon. Member must abide by my Ruling.
§ Mr. ShinwellOn that point of Order. Is it not in order to argue that if an advisory committee of this kind is established affecting primarily the Special Areas, as it is intended to do, the effect may be advan- 2103 tageous to areas not regarded as Special Areas, and is that not the argument of the hon. Member?
The Deputy-ChairmanNo, I think it is not. If the hon. Member would confine himself to that, he would be in order.
Mr. DavidsonVery good, Captain Bourne, I am quite willing at all times to abide by the Ruling of the Chair. The setting up of this advisory committee tied down to conditions reminds me very much of an old Scottish story about a very old couple who had been married for very many years. The old lady passed away, and friends of the bereaved husband waited patiently for the funeral to take place. After three days there was no funeral, and at the end of a week there was no funeral, but at the end of a fortnight the old lady was buried with all due pomp and ceremony. One of the old Scotsman's friends went up to him and said, "Sandy, there is a great deal of talk about how long you kept the wife after she was dead." The Scotsman replied, "The reason is that when Maggie and I first got married 45 years ago we agreed that the first chance we had we would have a quiet fortnight together." It seems to me that the hon. Lady, in putting down this Clause and criticising the Opposition as she has been, has attempted to delay the real work of the Members on these benches here with the object which they have of bettering this Bill. The Glasgow authorities are anxious to be incorporated in this Bill. If I am permitted to give my own personal opinion, I do not see why they are anxious to be incorporated into this Bill, because I think this is a Bill that could only have been brought forward by the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour himself, a niggling, petty attempt to try and deal with a problem that re-quires—
Mr. DavidsonThis Bill, in my opinion, is not worthy of any corporation desiring to co-operate. I think the Clause of which I have spoken is one which shows up entirely the petty-mindedness of the Government, and I therefore suggest to my hon. Friends that, so far as they are concerned, and so far as this particular Clause is concerned, they should leave the 2104 hon. Lady to this guerilla warfare with the President of the Board of Trade and the other friends of the hon. Lady. So far as Members on this side are concerned, we shall satisfy ourselves with showing up the mean spirit in which the Clause and the Amendment are presented.
§ 2.24 a.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellI wish to furnish one or two reasons why hon. Members on these benches are not likely to support the hon. Lady in the division lobby. If the Amendment had been differently worded, at all events in the last line, I believe it might have been an appropriate Amendment for Members on this side and indeed for the whole Committee to support, but we naturally in the circumstances take exception to the words "national self-sufficiency." That is a subject which requires very careful consideration indeed, and all the relevant factors must be taken into account before words of that kind could be accepted. If the last line had read "industrial activity from the point of view of the nation as a whole," the Amendment would have been more acceptable to Members on this side. Nevertheless I want to express my own gratitude to the hon. Lady for having raised this matter. The subsequent Debate on her Amendment has, in my view, been extremely valuable. It is a great pity that it should have had to take place at such a time of the morning. It does seem to me that sooner or later the Ministry of Labour, the Board of Trade, and kindred Departments must take cognisance of the need for collating all necessary relevant information in relation to the location of industry and the needs of our industrial life.
The right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Labour was formerly Minister of Mines. I have had the honour of occupying that position in two Governments, as the Committee knows, and one thing that struck me more than anything else when I occupied that position was the higgledy-piggledy position in the mines, by which I mean the power vested in the coal-owners to put down a mine here, there, or anywhere as they thought fit, and their power—and a proper power in the circumstances—to suspend operations in that mine even to the extent of completely dismantling the plant. What applies to the mining industry applies, as Members are aware, to many other industries in this country. The whole system is wrong. 2105 There is little or no organisation. It is a matter of individual selection, individual ramp, individual influence, and it cannot be argued that the industrial life of this country is thoroughly organised, at all events efficiently organised, in accordance with the needs of the nation, and in particular with regard to the needs that are bound to arise in the future. I would urge upon the Minister that he might take into account the need for advising the Government, as far as his own Department is concerned, to take such steps as he thinks may be necessary in order to collate all possible information as to the needs of our industrial life—the kinds of industry that can properly be established in the Special Areas. For example, if you take the county of Durham, there has been much talk in these Debates of the need for introducing new industries there, and in South Wales and elsewhere. The question is whether we are going to get the right type of industry that will be permanent in character. We do not want mushroom industries or industries that come and go in a few years. It appears to me that, in relation to these important matters which affect the whole of our industrial life, and are not partisan questions, the Government might give them much more consideration than they have yet done. For that reason I support the intention of the hon. Lady, although I cannot support her Amendment.
§ 2.32 a.m.
§ Mr. BurkeI want to deal with the matter from the point of view of national self-sufficiency. An hon. Member has stated that they had no information at the Board of Trade which enabled us to know what industries there are in this country that might be necessary from the point of view of self-sufficiency. I do not know whether the Board of Trade has that information or not, but I do know that the Board of Trade has some information about one industry which would be very severely hit if this idea of national self-sufficiency was carried any further than it has already been. If the proposal in this Amendment to take a survey of the industries of this country, with the object of starting industries in the Special Areas, is to be carried out, I would like the Minister to take cognisance of the fact that such a thing might have a bad influence upon one industry, that is to say, the cotton industry. I do 2106 not know whether on a later Clause the Minister will be able to tell us where parts of Lancashire will come in if action is taken to establish new industries for the purpose of self-sufficiency in the Special Areas. That would indeed have a very bad effect upon the major industry of Lancashire. The hon. and learned Member for East Bristol (Sir S. Cripps) said we wanted a statistical department in this country. I do not know whether there is need for a statistical department, or whether that might be set up in one of the Special Areas, but we have sufficient statistics already in Lancashire about the cotton industry. We know that industry declined from 8,000,000,000 yards to 2,000,000,000 yards in its exports. What we need in that industry—
The Deputy-ChairmanThe hon. Gentleman is quite entitled to point out that the introduction Of new industries in the Special Areas might cause harm to the cotton industry, but he must not go into the subject of the cotton industry.
§ Mr. BurkeI was pointing out that if new industries were set up which would take away our markets, it might have the effect of reducing the cotton industry still further. As I understand the suggestion of the hon. Lady, she does propose to start new industries, and she instances the industry of plywood which has been started in this country, which will enable us to live without our markets abroad. If that suggestion is taken up by the Government, I want seriously to point out that it is going to have a very bad effect in the case of cotton and other of our great industries. The need of the cotton industry is to retain its markets abroad and not to lose them. We have just had a very influential deputation to the Board of Trade with the object of impressing upon that department the need to retain and not to lose the markets which we have already got.
§ Major ProcterIs the hon. Gentleman aware that since the new industries have come into Lancashire the cotton industry has increased and not decreased?
§ Mr. BurkeI am not aware of that. I am aware that there has been a slump in the cotton industry of late, but I do not connect the two things at all. It does not alter the argument that the main outlet for the cotton industry is to be found in markets abroad. You cannot have 2107 markets abroad if you are going to proceed on the lines of self-sufficiency. I think that is abundantly clear. I notice on the Order Paper the words of a Motion, which has been backed by 18o hon. Members, who ask the Government to make us self-sufficient from the point of view of poultry and eggs. I understand that the intention is that we should be free from the foreign yoke. That may be all right so far as the agricultural industry is concerned, but all the eggs imported into this country are imported in exchange for cotton goods and other goods. I want to stress the needs of the great exporting industries, which are not to be found in line with a policy of self-sufficiency that is apparently being pressed further upon the Government in these Amendments.
§ 2.39 a.m.
§ Mr. KellyMay I ask where are the people who are going round and asking "What kind of industry shall we engage in?" As far as I know the trades mentioned have not only been looked at but have been engaged in by many people in the country who are now extending their establishments. I think the Government should see what is required for people who should be engaged in work; and in that connection there is the question of the development of mines. I do not mean coal mines but other raw materials that can be got in this country. In some areas we have great distress and this is a work that the Government may very well engage in at this time. It is not a work to appeal to the Federation of British Industries, which is concerned with profits before it will engage in any undertaking or sink a shaft or mine. It is the duty of the Government to help these Special Areas to engage upon that work so that people might have an income, and I think that is the sole aim of our discussion to-night. I hope there will be one thing that will come as a result of these discussions and that is that the President of the Board of Trade, the Ministry of Labour and other Departments will engage upon these investigations to assist people in those areas and also the development of industry.
The point has been raised as to whether in encouraging work in the Special Areas it would have an effect upon districts 2108 which are not named in the Schedule. Surely, if you engage on work in the Special Areas, in those parts of Scotland mentioned in the Second Schedule or in those parts of England mentioned in the First Schedule, you are bound, by your method of production in this country, to have an effect on other areas of the country which are not included in the Schedule. If we can develop these mines there are various metals such as tin which we could get, and if people were engaged upon getting them it would have a very great effect not only upon the distressed areas but also on other areas not included as distressed areas.
Textiles have been referred to in the course of this discussion, but I am not going to discuss Lancashire as it happens not to be included in the Special Areas, for a reason I do not understand in view of the suffering which has been submitted to by the people with too much patience in the last ten years. I want to refer to the textile industry which is carried on in some of the areas mentioned in the Schedule. Surely, it is not impossible to find means of extending the energies of those engaged in the industry to the advantage of the country and to the advantage of those who make use of the products of those mills. I do not see that the hon. lady has shown us anything that is going to be helped by this particular Amendment. I am wondering who are the people who are going round applying for an industry and who are asking where they can build factories. I hope this Amendment is going to be defeated and that the Government are going to give much more serious attention to this question.
§ 2.47 a.m.
Mr. David AdamsI think the Committee ought to be grateful to the hon. Lady for putting down this Amendment if it were only on the ground that she has provoked this very very useful discussion, upon what is after all a matter of national policy. If her Amendment had finished at that word "activity" the Minister might have found it in his heart to have accepted it. We have a national self sufficiency as indicated in the pure conservative outlook which so animates the Government in the matter of tariffs, and if the hon. lady believes that the Government are likely to accept a general amendment or proposition of this character, which is nothing less than a demand for 2109 national planning of industry, they would be accepting something which in the nature of things would not be acceptable. I am amazed that the hon. Lady, coming from an industrial centre like Wallsend, and being herself a Northumbrian, should have for one moment entertained the opinion that national self sufficiency would be of advantage to any industrial area. In 1932 when the tariff proposals were first introduced it was the chairman of the Tyne Commission who issued a strong warning to the Government and all concerned that an attempt to enforce what he called a narrow national self-sufficiency upon the State would destroy the shipbuilding, engineering and other trades directly connected with the export trade of the country. Even this year the Chamber of Shipping of the United Kingdom, showing an anxiety in regard to this policy, suggested that shipowners should use their influence with a view to inducing th Government to abandon this policy which is restricting the freer international trade of the world.
No one, I think, knows better than the Foreign Secretary that one of the causes of international unrest and against this nation is the policy of restricting our markets and endeavouring to exclude, as far as possible, the goods of other nations. It was a leading shipowner that said that the policy of the Government in the matter of tariff self-sufficiency had so impaired his trade with the continent of Europe that he was disposing of one of his steamships, and I am not sure that the position, in spite of a fortuitous improvement in international trade, has yet been recovered. It is a fact that Wallsend itself and other places on Tyneside has been turned, since 1932, into a Special Area owing to this identical policy, and now we have the Government attempting to make unilateral agreements in order to reduce, as far as they can, the evil influence of the tariff policy, which the hon. lady is suggesting in this Amendment this Committee should set up. Until the Government abandons its tariff policy—
Mr. AdamsWe are asked to commend a policy which we think is fatal to the 2110 best interests of the nation. However, there it is, and I suggest that two courses should be pursued—to reduce, as soon as we can, the influence of the policy which has been pursued; and secondly, to do what the Government has not yet thought fit to do, have national planning, an inquiry into suitable new industries applicable to the special areas and a complete co-ordination, which I think the hon. lady very easily demonstrated did not exist. We require co-ordination between the various departments of the Government. If that was done, and the Government accepted the Amendment on these lines, it would greatly strengthen the Bill now before the House.
§ 2.54 a.m.
§ Mr. J. GriffithsI join with my hon. Friends on this side of the House in regretting that the hon. Lady, the Member for Wallsend (Miss Ward) has spoilt a very good Amendment by bringing in those words "national self-sufficiency". I believe that she represents one of the Special Areas on the North-East coast, and she will know perfectly well that one of the main causes for the special conditions of that Special Area is the fact that during the last ten years, and during the last five years in particular, the whole of Europe has been trying to become nationally self-sufficient. The problem of the Special Areas is particularly a problem of the coal industry. For three generations these areas built up a great export trade and became increasingly more dependent on it, and as a result of the War, and even during the War, through the action of our own country, were compelled to become self-sufficient. One of the best markets for coal was Holland. Holland was a neutral country during the War and because the coal produced in this country, in Northumberland, in Durham, South Wales, in Yorkshire and elsewhere was required for the use of our own country, Holland was told early in the War "you cannot get any more" As a result of the supplies being cut off Holland was faced with the entire collapse of her industrial system, and therefore the Government of Holland proceeded to develop her own coal resources, which she had the good sense to make national property, without having to pay what we shall have to pay shortly. The result was that whereas, before the War, we sent substantial quantities of coal to 2111 Holland, now we send none, all because of the Government's policy of national self-sufficiency. The whole of this tariff system is in no small measure responsible for the position which the hon. Lady presents, because when we seek to become in a measure self-sufficient and prevent goods from coining here—and that is the object of a tariff—we must not think for a moment that other countries are going to sit down and say nothing. They have been retaliating on our coal export trade and the Government are, to a very large measure, responsible for the gravity of the position of these areas because since they came into power they have adopted a tariff policy which is a form of national self-sufficiency.
Many hon. Members who were present deplored the discussion we had in this House, which became almost a bitter discussion, on the question of calcium carbide. The Secretary of State for Scotland, whom I am glad to see here in his place to-night, said "Here is a product of tremendous importance to this country; here is a product which is vital for the whole of our industrial system, and a commodity which is vitally important for the whole of the rearmament programme. Here is calcium carbide. We have no knowledge about it, but if the House rejects this Caledonian Power' Bill, then we as that Government will set up a committee and that committee will investigate and inquire." That means that the Government are so incompetent that the Board of Trade and the research departments know so little about what is a vitally important commodity, upon which our industries depend very largely, that we have to set up a special committee. Then there is that question of oil from coal. From the standpoint of national self-sufficiency, surely one of the most vital commodities is oil, and yet we have the spectacle of the Secretary for Mines, Tuesday after Tuesday, saying in reply to questions, not only from this side but from all sides of the House "I very much regret that I can give no definite reply. We are still in the experimental stage. Billing-ham is still going on but we do not know whether it is a success or not." Germany has given an example of the policy of National self-sufficiency, whereas the Secretary of Mines says we are still in 2112 the experimental stage. Germany is now producing 48 per cent. of the oil she needs by extracting it from coal, and even from lignite coal. Another committee has been set up I gathered from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade—a third committee—which is to investigate the problem of food supplies in war time.
§ Mr. GriffithsI was merely pointing out that in this matter, as in every other matter, the Government are setting up, committees instead of setting up one comprehensive committee to co-ordinate the task of these separate committees, which could do the job in its own way. If we are to have this policy of national self sufficiency and produce our own calcium carbide and our own oil from coal, let us do it in an intelligent manner and not in a chaotic manner. For these reasons I regret the references to self sufficiency and hope that when next such matters as oil from coal come before us it will be realised how very important they are. I have heard hon. Members opposite become very eloquent about the German menace and make speeches about Hitler and the German nation, and how essential it is to have a rearmament policy ready to meet this menace, yet they know perfectly well that if an enemy country cut off our oil supplies, they would have us completely beaten. For these reasons I join with my hon. Friends in expressing the hope that the Government will accept this word of advice from one of their own supporters who, as she has said, has become tired of making intelligent suggestions to a Government which is obviously incapable of receiving them.
§ Captain Margesson rose in his place, and claimed to move. "That the Question be now put".
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put".
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 119; Noes, 53.
2081| Division No. 149.] | AYES. | [12.57 p.m. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Holdsworth, H. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. C. | Dawson, Sir P. | Holmes, J. S. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Doland, G. F. | Hopkinson, A. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Donner, P. W. | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Horne, Rt. Hon. Sir R. S. |
| Assheton, R. | Duncan, J. A. L. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Eckersley, P. T. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Joel, D. J. B. |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Emery, J. F. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm h) | Entwistle, Sir C. F. | Keyes, Admiral of the Fleet Sir R. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Errington, E. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Findlay, Sir E. | Leckie, J. A. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. | Furness, S. N. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. |
| Bracken, B. | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Liddall, W. S. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Gibson, C. G. (Pudsey and Otley) | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Gilmour, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir J. | Loftus, P. C. |
| Burghley, Lord | Goldie, N. B. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Grant-Ferris, R. | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Cary, R. A. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Grimston, R. V. | McKie, J. H. |
| Channon, H. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) |
| Churchill, Rt. Hon. Winston S. | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Hannah, I. C. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Harbord, A. | Markham, S. F. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Harris, Sir P. A. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Craven-Ellis, W. | Hartington, Marquess of | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Haslam, H. C. (Horncastle) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Patrick, C. M. |
| Peake, O. | Samuel, M. R. A. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Peters, Dr. S. J. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. |
| Petherick, M. | Scott, Lord William | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Procter, Major H. A. | Seely, Sir H. M. | Turton, R. H. |
| Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Ramsbotham, H. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Rankin, Sir R. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Spens, W. P. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) | Watt, G. S. H. |
| Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Strickland, Captain W. F. | White, H. Graham |
| Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Ropner, Colonel L. | Sueter, Rear-Admiral Sir M. F. | Wise, A. R. |
| Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Sutcliffe, H. | Wragg, H. |
| Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | |
| Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) | Thomas, J. P. L. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Salt, E. W. | Touche, G. C. | Sir Henry Morris Jones and |
| Captain Hope. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Ritson, J. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Rowson, G. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Hayday, A. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Shinwell, E. |
| Batey, J. | Jagger, J. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Bevan, A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Leslie, J. R. | Stephen, C. |
| Daggar, G. | Macdonald, G, (Ince) | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dalton, H. | McEntee, V. La T. | Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | MacLaren, A. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Dobbie, W. | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maxton, J. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Ede, J. C. | Parkinson, J. A. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Potts, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Frankel, D. | Price, M. P. | |
| Grenfell, D. R. | Pritt, D. N. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves. |
| Division No. 150.] | AYES. | [3.5 a.m. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Petherick, M. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Grant-Ferris, R. | Plugge, Capt. L. F. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B kn hd) | Grimston, R. V. | Procter, Major H. A. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Raikes, H. V. A. M. |
| Assheton, R. | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Hannah, I. C. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Blinded, Sir J. | Harbord, A. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Salt, E. W. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Holmes, J. S. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Scott, Lord William |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Hopkinson, A. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Burghley, Lord | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Joel, D. J. B. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Cary, R. A. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Channon, H. | Leckie, J. A. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Liddall, W. S. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Touche, G. C. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Loftus, P. C. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | McCorquodale, M. S. | Turton, R. H. |
| Dawson, Sir P. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Doland, G. F. | McKie, J. H. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Eckersley, P. T. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Watt, G. S. H. |
| Emery, J. F. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Wise, A. R. |
| Everard, W. L. | Morris-Jonas, Sir Henry | Wragg, H. |
| Findlay, Sir. E. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | |
| Furness, S. N. | Patrick, C. M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Fyfe, D. P. M. | Peake, O. | Major Sir George Davies and Mr. |
| Goldie, N. B. | Peters, Dr. S. J. | James Stuart. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Shinwell, E. |
| Batey, J. | Jagger, J. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Bevan, A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cooks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Stephen, C. |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dalton, H. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | McEntee, V. La T. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dobbie, W. | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maxton, J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Edo, J. C. | Parkinson, J. A. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Potts, J. | |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Price, M. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Frankel, D. | Pritt, D. N. | Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves. |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Ritson, J. |
§ Question, "That those words be there inserted," put accordingly, and nagatived.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
§ Mr. Shinwell rose—
2114§ Captain Margesson rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
§ Question put, "That the Question be now put."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 177; Noes, 54.
2115| Division No. 151.] | AYES. | [3.15 a.m. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Braithwaite, Major A. N. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Pertsm'h) | Brass, Sir W. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Blindell, Sir J. | Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) |
| Assheton, R. | Boulton, W. W. | Burghley, Lord |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Cary, R. A. | Holmes, J. S. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Channon, H. | Hopkinson, A. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Salt, E. W. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Joel, D. J. B. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Scott, Lord William |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Leckie, J. A. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Doland, G. F. | Liddall, W. S. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | Loftus, P. C. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Eckersley, P. T. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | McCorquodale, M. S. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Emery, J. F. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | McKie, J. H. | Touche, G. C. |
| Everard, W. L. | Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Findlay, Sir E. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Furness, S. N. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Turton, R. H. |
| Fyfe, D. P. M. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Goldie, N. B. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Grant-Ferris, R. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Grimston, R. V. | Patrick, C. M. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Peake, O. | Watt, G. S. H. |
| Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Peters, Dr. S. J. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Petherick, M. | Wise, A. R. |
| Hannah, I. C. | Plugge, Capt. L. F. | Wragg, H. |
| Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Procter, Major H. A. | |
| Harbord, A. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Major Sir George Davies and Mr. James Stuart. |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland. N.) |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Sexton. T. M. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Shinwell, E. |
| Batey, J. | Jagger, J. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Bevan, A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Stephen, C. |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dalton, H. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | McEntee, V. La T. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dobbie, W. | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maxton, J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Ede, J. C. | Parkinson, J. A. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Potts, J. | |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Price, M. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Frankel, D. | Pritt, D. N. | Mr. Mathers and Mr. Groves. |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Ritson, J. |
§ Question put accordingly, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
2116§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 119; Noes, 53.
2117| Division No. 152.] | AYES. | [3.24 a.m. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Cary, R. A. | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) |
| Albary, Sir Irving | Castlereagh, Viscount | Everard, W. L. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Channon, H. | Findlay, Sir E. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Furness, S. N. |
| Assheton, R. | Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Fyfe, D. P. M. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Goldie, N. B. |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Courtauld, Major J. S. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Grant-Ferris, R. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Crowder, J. F. E. | Grimston, R. V. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Guinness, T. L. E. B. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. | Dawson, Sir P. | Gunston, Capt. D. W. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Doland, G. F. | Hannah, I. C. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Duncan, J. A. L. | Harbord, A. |
| Burghley, Lord | Eckersley, P. T. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Emery, J. F. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) |
| Holmes, J. S. | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Hopkinson, A. | Patrick, C. M. | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Peake, O. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. | Peters, Dr. S. J. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Joel, D. J. B. | Petherick, M. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Plugge, Capt. L. F. | Touche, G. C. |
| Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Procter, Major H. A. | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Leckie, J. A. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) | Turton, R. H. |
| Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Liddall, W. S. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Loftus, P. C. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Ropner, Colonel L. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| McCorquodale, M. S. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) | Salt, E. W. | Watt, G. S. H. |
| McKie, J. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. | Wise, A. R. |
| Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Scott, Lord William | Wragg, H. |
| Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | |
| Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Southby, Commander A. R J. | Mr. James Stuart and Lieut.- Colonel Llewellin. |
| Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J | |
| NOES. | ||
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Adams, D. (Cansett) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Shinwell, E. |
| Batey, J. | Jagger, J. | Simpson, F. B. |
| Bevan, A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Stephen, C. |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dalton, H. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | McEntee, V. La T. | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dobbie, W. | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Maxton, J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Ede, J. C. | Parkinson, J. A. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Potts, J. | |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Price, M. P. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Frankel, D. | Pritt, D. N. | Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers. |
| George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Ritson, J. |
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
I would like to draw attention to the fact that the Patronage Secretary, in quite an unwarranted and indeed amazing fashion, rose when I was standing at this Box to take part in the Debate that Clause 3 stand part of the Bill, and moved the Closure. That was more particularly ungracious in view of the fact that the
§ Amendment upon which the closure had been moved—
§ The ChairmanI think the hon. Member is forgetting our rules of Procedure. He cannot discuss the Closure.
§ Question put, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 54; Noes, 118.
2119| Division No. 153.] | AYES. | [3.34 a.m. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Ritson, J. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) |
| Adamson, W. M. | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Barr, J. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Sexton, T. M. |
| Batey, J. | Jagger, J. | Shinwell, E. |
| Bevan, A. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Simpson, F. B. |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Cocks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Stephen, C. |
| Dalton, H. | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | McEntee, V. La T. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Dobbie, W. | Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) | Tinker, J. J. |
| Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Ede, J. C. | Maxton, J. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Parkinson, J. A. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Potts, J. | |
| Frankel, D. | Price, M. P. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Mr. Groves and Mr. Mathers. | ||
| NOES. | ||
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Goldie, N. B. | Petherick, M. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Plugge, Capt. L. F. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Grant-Ferris, R. | Procter, Major H. A. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Grimston, R. V. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. |
| Assheton, R. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir C. M. | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Hannah, I. C. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Harbord, A. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Salt, E. W. |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Holmes, J. S. | Scott, Lord William |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Burghley, Lord | Hopkinson, A. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. H. | Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. |
| Cary, R. A. | Joel, D. J. B. | Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Strickland, Captain W. F. |
| Channon, H. | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Sutcliffe, H. |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Leckie, J. A. | Tate, Mavis C. |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Thomas, J. P. L. |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Liddall, W. S. | Touche, G. C. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J, | Tree, A. R. L. F. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Loftus, P. C. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) | Turton, R. H. |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | McCorquodale, M. S. | Wakefield, W. W. |
| Dawson, Sir P. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) | Walker-Smith, Sir J. |
| Doland, G. F. | McKie, J. H. | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) |
| Duncan, J. A. L. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. | Watt, G. S. H. |
| Eckersley, P. T. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) | Wise, A. R. |
| Emery, J. F. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) | Wragg, H. |
| Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | Morris-Jones, Sir Henry | |
| Everard, W. L. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Findlay, Sir E. | Patrick, C. M. | Mr. James Stuart and Captain |
| Furness, S. N. | Peake, O. | Waterhouse. |
| Fyfe, D. P. M. | Peters, Dr. S. J. |
§ 3.42 a.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellI beg to move, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."
I wish to make it quite clear that in doing so I pass no reflection on yourself personally, but do so as the only means of protesting against the ungovernable conduct of the Patronage Secretary in intervening at a time when clearly there was no warrant for doing so.
§ The ChairmanI cannot accept the Motion.
§ Mr. ShinwellOn a point of Order. I have consulted the records of the House. and I wish to draw your attention to the fact that on 7th June, 1858—I believe the last occasion when there was a Motion to report Progress followed by a Motion "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair "—although there I am open to correction—the Question of reporting Progress having been negatived, the Committee, some time afterwards, was prepared to assent to such a Motion. That being so, it appears to me that the Motion is in order.
§ The ChairmanIf the hon. Member will refer to Standing Orders he will find that the Chairman has power to decline to put the Question.
§ Mr. ShinwellFurther to the point of Order. If the Chairman declines to accept such a Motion, then may I ask for your guidance as to what remedy is in the possession of hon. Members on this side of the Committee in order to deal with a situation in which the Patronage Secretary and apparently the Chairman are involved.
§ The ChairmanThere is no remedy that I can suggest to the hon. Member.
§ 3.44 a.m.
§ Mr. StephenI would like to draw your attention, not to a reference to the last century, but to the most recent example, which was on 27th May, 1930, when the Motion was made "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair." Perhaps I may be allowed to read one or two sentences. The position was then taken after the Motion which was made 2121 by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill). He said:
I rise to a point of order. I wish to ask from you at this stage some further guidance as to the conditions under which we are permitted to conduct our debate and under what conditions Members of this House are to be permitted to deliver their speeches and criticisms, if at all. In order to put myself in order I propose to conclude by moving under Rule 68—I think the right hon. Gentleman went wrong. It should be Rule 67. Under that Rule 67 I take it that the discretion is within the power of the Chairman, if the Chairman believes that it is an abuse of the Standing Orders of the House to refuse to accept the Motion. I am sorry that before the motion was moved I did not raise another point of Order if you regard a Motion to report Progress as an abuse of the Standing Orders of the House after we had been on the debate during all this time, and this is the first attempt to report progress—but that is beside the point.
§ The ChairmanI am afraid that the rest of the hon. Member's point was that he appears to be reporting a case in which the Chair was accepting the Motion, but in this case I am not.
§ Mr. StephenI had only got to the length of contending that it is true that on the original occasion the right to decline the Motion is only if the Chairman is of opinion that the Motion is an abuse of Standing Orders. The point of Order I am now wanting to put is that if in giving your refusal you are regarding the Motion as an abuse of the Standing Orders, then I understand that the only procedure for the Opposition is to put the Motion on the Paper for discussion.
§ The ChairmanThe hon. Member now seems to be trying to discuss the conduct of the Chair.
§ Mr. MaxtonMay I say, that I do not see that there is any reason why this should be hurried or rushed. I have been in his Committee since the Comrnittee—
§ The ChairmanI do not know what the hon. Member means by saying that this should not be rushed. There is no Question before the Committee at the moment.
§ Mr. MaxtonThere is a point of Order.
§ The ChairmanThere is no point of Order, because I have ruled on the point of Order which has been raised. If the hon. Member has another point of Order, of course I will hear it.
§ Mr. StephenJust a minute.
§ The ChairmanOn the point raised by the hon. Member for Camlachie (Mr. Stephen), I have given my decision.
§ Mr. StephenOn this point, with all respect, I asked you a specific question in respect of a Standing Order, and I am quite willing to accept your ruling, but surely I am entitled to the courtesy of a reply to my question? If the Chair is ruling that this Motion is an abuse of the Standing Orders of the House, if I can get an answer indicating where we are—
§ The ChairmanThe hon. Member must assume that.
§ Mr. MaxtonI wish to ask a further point of Order on this, the first convenient opportunity. Is it your ruling that the Motion to report Progress was also an abuse of the Rules of this House, rules which are here for the protection of Members?
§ The ChairmanThe hon. Member cannot now raise that point. He is apparently endeavouring to discuss the conduct of the Chair, and that he cannot do.
§ Mr. MaxtonI am asking a simple question.
§ The ChairmanOrder.
§ Mr. MaxtonI am putting a point of Order. It is I who hold the Floor and not you, Sir.
§ The ChairmanClause 4.
§ The ChairmanI must ask the hon. Member immediately to withdraw that remark.
§ Mr. BevanI say I have been in this House for seven years and your conduct has been abominable. I have never seen anything as bad.
§ The ChairmanI must again request the hon. Member to withdraw that.
§ Mr. BevanI say your conduct has been abominable in the Committee tonight, and I refuse to withdraw what is true.
§ The ChairmanI name the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale for disregarding the authority of the Chair.
§ The CHAIRMAN then left the Chair to report the circumstances to the House.
§ Mr. SPEAKER resumed the Chair, and the CHAIRMAN reported that Mr. BEVAN had been named by him to the Committee as disregarding the authority of the CHAIR.
§ Mr. E. BrownI beg to move, "That Mr. Bevan be suspended from the service of the House."
§ 4.1 a.m.
§ Mr. ShinwellOn a point of Order. May I ask your guidance, Mr. Speaker, before you put the Motion? At this early hour in the morning it may well be that that there are extenuating circumstances which might be taken into account to induce you not to put the Motion. I understand that it is within your discretion whether the Motion is put or not, and, that being so, I ask whether it is possible in the circumstances, having regard to what occurred prior to your being called, that you might not find it necessary to put the Question.
§ Mr. SpeakerUnder the Standing Order I have no power but to put the Motion.
§ 4.3 a.m.
§ Mr. MaxtonOn a point of Order. I am very anxious to have an opportunity of raising this. It has been the practice in this House that when a Member has offended against the Chair, before the Motion has been put, an opportunity has been given by the Chair to the Member to withdraw from the Chamber. I want to ask you, Sir, whether, under the appropriate Rule of the House, that opportunity will be extended to the lion. Member for Ebbw Vale before the Motion is made for his suspension from the House. The appropriate Rule says:
The Speaker or the Chairman of the Committee of the Whole House may order any Member whose conduct is grossly disorderly to withdraw immediately from the House.I want to put it to you that on the occasions that I can remember occurring in the past that was the usual practice, and I want to ask you if that practice could be adopted in these particular circumstances in which we find ourselves.
§ Mr. SpeakerNo. The Standing Order is quite clear. When I resume the Chair, the only thing I can do is to accept the Motion and put it forthwith to the House.
§ Question put, "That Mr. Bevan be suspended from the service of the House."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 199; Noes, 43.
2125| Division No. 154.] | AYES. | [4.7 a.m. |
| Acland, R. T. D. (Barnstaple) | Duncan, J. A. L. | Liddall, W. S. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Eckersley, P. T. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. |
| Albery, Sir Irving | Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. | Loftus, P. C. |
| Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) | Emery, J. F. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.) | McCorquodale, M. S. |
| Assheton, R. | Everard, W. L. | MacDonald, Rt. Hon. M. (Ross) |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) | Findlay, Sir E. | McKie, J. H. |
| Barclay-Harvey, Sir G. M. | Furness, S. N. | Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Fyfe, D. P. M. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Goldie, N. B. | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Boulton, W. W. | Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) | Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth) |
| Bower, Comdr. R. T. | Grant-Ferris, R. | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. | Grimston, R. V. | Patrick, C. M. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Guest, Maj. Hon. O. (C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Peake, O. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Guinness, T. L. E. B. | Peters, Dr. S. J. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Petherick, M. |
| Burghley, Lord | Hannah, I. C. | Plugge, Capt. L. F. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | Procter, Major H. A. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Harbord, A. | Raikes, H. V. A. M. |
| Cary, R. A. | Heilgers, Captain F. F. A. | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hepburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Channon, H. | Herbert, Major J. A. (Monmouth) | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Clarke, Lt.-Col. R. S. (E. Grinstead) | Holmes, J. S. | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Cobb, Captain E. C. (Preston) | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. Rt. Hon. D. J. | Hopkinson, A. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Courtauld, Major J. S. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Salt, E. W. |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. | James, Wins-Commander A. W. H. | Samuel, M. R. A. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Joel, D. J. B. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Scott, Lord William |
| Davies, Major Sir G. F. (Yeovil) | Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) | Seely, Sir H. M. |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Leckie, J. A. | Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) |
| Doland, G. F. | Leighton, Major B. E. P. | Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Southby, Commander A. R. J. |
| Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | Tree, A. R. L. F. | Watt, G. S. H. |
| Strauss, E. A. (Southwark, N.) | Tufnell, Lieut.-Commander R. L. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Strickland, Captain W. F. | Turton, R. H. | Wise, A. R. |
| Sutcliffe, H. | Wakefield, W. W. | Wragg, H. |
| Tate, Mavis C. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull) | Sir Henry Morris-Jones and Mr. |
| Thomas, J. P. L. | Ward, Irene M. B. (Wallsend) | James Stuart. |
| Touche, G. C. | Waterhouse, Captain C. | |
| NOES. | ||
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | Pritt, D. N. |
| Adamson, W. M. | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) | Ritson, J. |
| Barr, J. | Jagger, J. | Sexton, T. M. |
| Batey, J. | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) | Shinwell, E. |
| Burke, W. A. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) | Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe) |
| Cooks, F. S. | Kelly, W. T. | Smith, E. (Stoke) |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Lawson, J. J. | Smith, T. (Normanton) |
| Daggar, G. | Leslie, J. R. | Stephen, C. |
| Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill) | Macdonald, G. (Ince) | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) |
| Dobbie, W. | McEntee, V. La T. | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Dunn, E. (Rather Valley) | MacMillan, M. (Western Isles) | Watson, W. McL. |
| Ede, J. C. | Mathers, G. | Windsor, W. (Hull, C.) |
| Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) | Maxton, J. | Woods, G. S. (Finsbury) |
| Frankel, D. | Parkinson, J. A. | |
| Groves, T. E. | Potts, J. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Mr. Tinker and Mr. James Griffiths. |
§ Mr. SPEAKER then directed Mr. BEVAN to withdraw from the House, and he withdrew accordingly.