FIREARMS (AMENDMENT) BILL [Lords]. (Hansard, 11 May 1936)

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for the HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir John Simon)
I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill comes to us from the House of Lords, where it was passed without amendment. It has nothing to do with the general question of armaments, and raises no question of major principle, but is a useful Departmental Measure, and, in substance, quite uncontroversial. It is concerned with a number of miscellaneous amendments which experience has shown 165 to be desirable in our domestic law relating to the internal control of firearms and ammunition. It is based on the recommendations of a Departmental Committee which was set up in 1934, and on which three Members of this House served, the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn), the hon. Member for East Lewisham (Sir A. Pownall), and a third Member, now unhappily dead, who, I think, drew specific attention to the need of amendment of the law, the late Sir John Pybus. The Committee was presided over by Sir Archibald Bodkin and had representatives on it of the Departments concerned and persons with firsthand knowledge of the trade. We are all obliged to the Committee for the trouble which they took and the useful recommendations which they made.
The Bill amends the existing Firearms Act, 1920. That was not because it was supposed that the general system of control set up by that Act was unsatisfactory. It was rather because experience had shown that it was desirable to amend the law in a number of details. The most important one and the only one which, I think, the House would wish me to explain on Second Reading has to do with the definition and classification of the weapons which are for the purposes of the Act called firearms. The general object of the main Act, the Act of 1920, as now amended, is to secure that dangerous weapons should not get into the hands of people who cannot fairly be trusted with them, either because they are criminals or insane, of drunken habits, too young, or whatever the reason may be. Leaving aside the question of prohibited weapons, of which the best example is a weapon constructed to distribute poison gas, the Act subjected to control broadly all firearms except smooth-bore sporting shotguns and airguns—weapons operated by compressed air. It established a system of registration of manufacturers and dealers in firearms and it restricted the purchase, possession and use of firearms to persons who had obtained certificates from the chief officer of police. This Bill amends that classification, not in principle but in detail. It will remain the law that all rifled weapons will be subject to control and, broadly speaking, that all air weapons will be free from control except as regards the special prohibitions in the Act.
166 The main amendment that it makes as regards definitions is that it will leave outside control ordinary smooth-bore sporting guns but it will draw a line according to the length of the barrel, and in future all smooth-bore guns having a barrel of 20 inches or more in length will be exempt, but a smooth-bore weapon with a shorter barrel than that will be subject to control. The object of that is to ensure that, while we do not interfere with the legitimate sporting use of shotguns, shorter barrelled weapons, which by reason of their being easy to conceal and more likely to be used for criminal purposes are especially dangerous, shall be kept under control. Consequently, there is a Clause which makes it an offence for anyone who has a smoothbore weapon with a long barrel to shorten the barrel to a length of less than 20 inches. In the same way there are provisions which would improve the state of the law about safety or dummy pistols, which may be used as toys or starting pistols for athletic purposes but which are capable of being turned into lethal weapons. There are a number of provisions of detail suggested by the Committee which will undoubtedly increase the reasonable regulation of this kind of instrument.
The Bill is perhaps a little complicated in its terms. That is because if these Amendments are approved it will then be possible—I hope it may be done very soon—to put the whole of the law on this subject, which is at present to be found in three Acts of Parliament, into a single consolidated Measure which will be as simple, straightforward, intelligible and comprehensive as any consolidation can be. Unless hon. Members wish for information on any other Clause, which I will do my best to supply, I think I have said all that is necessary in moving the Second Reading and I shall be very glad if the House will approve the principle of the Bill. If there are any details on individual Clauses, they will more naturally be raised in Committee.

§ Mr. LUNN
This is the last of a long list of uncontroversial Bills that we have had to-day—an unusual day's proceedings it has been—and I have listened to most of them. I think the right hon. Gentleman has fairly well explained the provisions of the Bill. As he says, I was 167 a member of the Departmental Committee. The only reason that I could ever think of why I was made a member of it is that we were in such small numbers on this side of the House in the last Parliament that it was difficult to find Members who could take office in the many committees that were set up by the Government at that time. Perhaps I knew as little about firearms as any Member of this House. I never remembered having handled a firearm until I became a member of the Departmental Committee. I have had a long experience in this House and have found that it is not necessary that a Member should know a great deal about a subject in order to be able to speak upon it and take part in a debate. At the same time, I devoted myself to the work of that committee, and I was a regular attender. I should like to pay a tribute to the chairman. Sir Archibald Bodkin was the most remarkable chairman under whom I have ever sat in my life. He thoroughly grasped the subject and was helpful to every member of the committee, making it very easy for us to understand and to come to decisions upon matters, which, I am sure, as a result of the report which we all signed at the end of our deliberations, are in the interests of the nation as a whole. The Bill will tighten up the law in many respects in regard to certification and registration. There have been, as the right hon. Gentleman has said, Acts of Parliament dealing with firearms before the introduction of this Bill, which is a sort of consolidating Measure in that it contains many of the provisions in the principal Act of 1920. There are not so many Amendments, but they will be for the safety of the public of this country when the Bill is passed into law.
There are one or two things upon which I have a little doubt. I was pleased that we were able to see a weapon which was in the form of a miniature machine gun, and which, when the trigger is pulled, fires continuously until the magazine is exhausted. Instruments as deadly and destructive as that must naturally be prohibited, and we sought to prohibit many things of that character which were brought before us during the wonderful evidence we heard from many people of experience from all parts of England and Scotland, 168 who knew much about the subject of the danger of firearms to the public. But I had my doubts about the easy manner in which rifle clubs were able to claim exemption. This may not need amendment, but it is a matter that should be watched very carefully to see that irresponsible people are not allowed to give out exemptions for the use of firearms in that connection. I should prohibit dummy or toy pistols which can be so easily converted into deadly weapons. The matter might well be looked into when the Bill is in Committee to see if it is possible to prohibit toy pistols which can be so easily converted into dangerous weapons. It may be possible to strengthen the Bill with regard to prohibited weapons or substances which are poisonous or obnoxious, whether solids, liquids or gases. Clause 7 might well be strengthened upon that point, in regard to which some of us had doubts when we were considering it as a Departmental Committee. I think the Bill will make the law more understandable in regard to firearms and will prevent in this country some of the things that are common in other countries. I know little about firearms, have no interest in them, and am not anxious to handle them. I only handled them as a member of the Departmental Committee and may never handle them again. I believe the law can be strengthened as a result of this Bill and that the public will be safeguarded from some of the dangers that may happen if we do not pass the Measure.

§ Mr. K. GRIFFITH
We on these benches welcome the Bill. It is a difficult thing for the Home Secretary to hold the balance in this matter between preventing things which are really dangerous and interfering with the legitimate amusements of the public. I think this Bill does that. We shall have to wait for the Consolidation Bill to get everything in its final form. Meanwhile, we are glad that a matter which was so near to the heart of our late and regretted friend, Sir John Pybus, has been dealt with.

§ Sir J. SIMON
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for the Rothwell Division (Mr. Lunn) for remedying an omission that I made. It is important to make it 169 plain that in a Clause of this Bill there is a list of weapons that are prohibited. One weapon is sometimes called—I defer to the expert opinion of my hon. Friend—a sub-machine gun. That is to say, it is a weapon which, when the trigger has been pulled, will continuously fire until the magazine is exhausted, without any further action on the part of the holder. It is a weapon of the type which was used at the assassination of King Alexander of Yugoslavia, and the weapon which we are informed is used by gangsters on the other side of the water. We do not want it here. There is no possible legitimate reason why anyone should have it, and I think the fact alone that there is prohibition of that weapon will go a long way to commend the Bill to the House.