HC Deb 23 March 1936 vol 310 cc953-7

7.19 p.m.

Mr. MAXTON

I beg to move, in page 4, to leave out lines 27 to 30.

The effect of this Amendment is to remove the words: Provided that he shall not, he entitled to receive in any benefit year agricultural benefit in respect of periods exceeding in the aggregate three hundred days. We do not see any reason for this limit. The conditions under which an unemployed agricultural worker is to receive benefit in proportion to the contributions that he has paid are laid down in the earlier part of the Clause. He is to receive 12 days for the first 10 contributions standing to his credit and three further days for every agricultural contribution so standing to his credit in addition to the said 10. Those are the ways in which the total duration of his benefit is to be computed. We see no reason why there should be a limit to this. If these proportions are actuarially sound, they remain sound. It seems a purely arbitrary thing to say that an agricultural worker who has been in regular employment for an extended period of time and has faithfully paid his contributions without drawing benefit should have this disability imposed upon him which is not imposed on the man whose employment has been more intermittent. It is a definite penalising of the man who has been in the most regular employment.

In other words, a man who has a shorter period of employment and has paid a smaller number of contributions gets the full value of those contributions as calculated on the 12 days for the first 10 contributions and three additional days for each additional one, but a man whose employment has been better than that ceases to draw any benefit after 300 days. On the proposed new Clause that we discussed earlier a very strong argument was put up by hon. Members opposite for giving a return of contributions to farmers and workers because of extended periods of service without unemployment. The House rejected that in our view rightly, because the return of contributions was of trivial benefit either to the farmer or to the agricultural worker. It was argued on this side that, if the fund was able to give some advantages, it would be better to give them in the form of increased benefits than in the form of a rebate. This Amendment brings it back to that point of view. It gives a man with extended periods of service without unemployment the full value of the contributions that he has paid.

7.24 p.m.

Mr. STEPHEN

I beg to second the Amendment.

It is in accordance with the insurance principle, which the Minister and hon. Members opposite are anxious to maintain. An unemployed worker ought to get benefits in proportion to his contributions. I wonder if it was felt necessary that there should be this limitation because of the limitation in the industrial scheme to 156 days. We do not believe in that limitation and I think we are consistent in seeking to remove it from this scheme. With rates of benefit based on the proportion of contributions, I do not think any maximum amount of benefit is necessary.

7.26 p.m.

Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD

This limitation is in strict accord with the recommendation of the Statutory Committee in paragraph 108 of their Report. The object is to make certain that at the end of the year a man can still he considered to be in the insurable field. We are not going to take away any contributions from anyone, nor penalise those who have been in regular employment, as was suggested by the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Mr. Maxton). It is only that, when the contributor comes to the end of his 300 days for that year, a new set of 10 contributions is required in order to make certain that he is still in the insurable field. Having got those 10 extra contributions he is not denied the extra days that he may be entitled to on his contributions.

Mr. MAXTON

Suppose he has 400 contributions?

Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD

The contributor can utilise all his contributions provided that after the end of the year he gets 10 contributions to prove that he is still in the insurable field.

Mr. MAXTON

Why ask for 10? Why does 10 make him a good insurable life?

Lieut.-Colonel MUIRHEAD

I do not want to over-stress the comparison between this scheme and the general scheme, because there are so many differences when it comes to the relation between contributions and benefit, but I may point contributions and benefit, but I may point out that under the general scheme three is a similar provision for re-qualification. It is not a question whether a man has been insured for a long time, but of trying to ensure that at the end of the year he is still the insurable field.

That is definitely the object of the recommendation of the Statutory Committee and we are adopting it for the same reason that they recommended it.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 216; Noes, 110.

Division No. 114.] AYES. [7.28 p.m.
Acland, Rt. Hon. Sir F. Dyke Elliston, G. S. Meitland, A.
Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) Elmley, Viscount Makins, Brig.-Gen. E.
Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. Emrys-Evans, P. V. Mander, G. le M.
Albery, I. J. Errington, E. Manningham-Buller, Sir M.
Alexander, Brig.-Gen. Sir W. Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd) Everard, W. L. Maxwell, S. A.
Anstruther-Gray, W. J. Foot, D. M. Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.
Asks, Sir R. W. Fremantle, Sir F. E. Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham)
Atholl, Duchess of George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)
Balfour, G. (Hampstead) Gledhill, G. Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)
Balfour, Capt. H. H. (Isle of Thanet) Giuckstein, L. H. Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswlck)
Barclay-Harvey, C. M. Glyn, Major Sir R. G. C. Moreing, A. C.
Beaumont, M. W. (Aylesbury) Goodman, Col. A. W. Morris, J. P. (Salford. N.)
Belt, Sir A. L. Gower, Sir R. V. Morris-Jones Dr. J. H.
Bernays, R. H. Graham, Captain A. C. (Wirral) Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)
Blair, Sir R. Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.
Bossom, A. C. Gridley, Sir A. B. O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh
Boulton, W. W. Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.
Bower, Comdr. R. T. Grimston, R. V. Owen, Major G.
Bowyer, Capt. Sir G. E. W. Gritten, W. G. Howard Peake, O.
Braithwaite, Major A. N. Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll, N. W.) Penny, Sir G.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G. Guinness, T. L. E. B. Perkins, W. R. D.
Brocklebank, C. E. R. Gunston, Capt. D. W. Peters, Dr. S. J.
Brown, Col. D. C. (Hexham) Guy, J. C. M. Petherick, M.
Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) Hanbury, Sir C. Ponsonby, Col. C. E.
Brown, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) Hannah, I. C. Procter, Major H. A.
Burton, Col. H. W. Harbord, A. Ramsbotham, H.
Butler, R. A. Harris, Sir P. A. Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Butt, Sir A. Harvey, G. Rayner, Major R. H.
Campbell, Sir E. T. Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Cartland, J. R. H. Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. Remer, J. R.
Cautley, Sir H. S. Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Ripon) Rickards, G. W. (Skipton)
Cayzer, Sir C. W. (City of Chester) Holdsworth, H. Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Channon, H. Holmes, J. S. Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen) Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. Ropner, Colonel L.
Clarke, F. E. Hopkinson, A. Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'nderry)
Clarry, Sir R. G. Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L. Russell, R. J. (Eddisbury)
Cobb, Sir C. S. Horsbrugh, Florence Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Colfox, Major W. P. Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) Salmon, Sir I.
Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. Hudson, R. S. (Southport) Salt, E. W.
Cooke, J. D. (Hammersmith, S.) Hume, Sir G. H. Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)
Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'burgh.W.) Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H. Savery, Servington
Courtauld, Major J. S. Jackson, Sir H. Scott, Lord William
Courthope, Col. Sir G. L. Joel, D. J. B. Seely, Sir H. M.
Craddock, Sir R. H. Jones, Sir G. W. H. (S'k N'w'gt'n) Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree)
Cranborne, Viscount Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Crookshank, Capt. H. F. C. Kerr, H. W. (Oldham) Shepperson, Sir E. W.
Croom-Johnson, R. P. Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) Shute, Colonel Sir J. J.
Crossley, A. C. Kirkpatrick, W. M. Simon, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A.
Crowder, J. F. E. Lamb, Sir J. Q. Smith, Sir R. W. (Aberdeen)
Cruddas, Col. B. Latham, Sir P. Somerset, T.
Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil) Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.) Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Davison, Sir W. H. Leckie, J. A. Somerville, A. A. (Windsor)
Denville, Alfred Leech, Dr. J. W. Spears, Brig.-Gen. E. L.
Despencer-Robertson, Major J. A. F. Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. Spens, W. P.
Donner, P. W. Lewis, O. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. Liddall, W. S. Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd)
Dower, Capt. A. V. G. Little, Sir E. Graham- Stourton, Hon. J. J.
Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J. Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Dugdale, Major T. L. Loder, Captain Hon. J. de V. Strickland, Captain W. F.
Duncan, J. A. L. Loftus, P. C. Stuart, Lord C. Crichton- (N'thw'h)
Dunglass, Lord Lovat-Fraser, J. A. Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn)
Dunne, P. R. R. Lumley, Capt. L. R. Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)
Eales, J. F. MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G Touche, G. C.
Eastwood, J. F. Macdonald, Capt. P. (Isle of Wight) Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L.
Edmondson, Major Sir J. Maclay, Hon. J. P. Turton, R. H.
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E. Macmillan, H. (Stockton-on-Tees) Wakefield, W. W.
Ellis, Sir G. Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J. Ward, Lieut.-Col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Ward, Irene (Wallsend) Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) Wise, A. R.
Wardiaw-Milne, Sir J. S. Willoughby de Eresby, Lord Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Waterhouse, Captain C. Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Wells, S. R. Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—
Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R. Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl Commander Southby aud Mr.
Cross.
NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett) Grenfell, D. R. Potts, J.
Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) Pritt, D. N.
Adamson, W. M. Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) Quibell, J. D.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) Henderson, J. (Ardwick) Riley, B.
Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) Henderson, T. (Tradeston) Ritson, J.
Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R. Holland, A. Rowson, G.
Banfield, J. W. Hopkin, D. Salter, Dr. A.
Barnes, A. J. Jagger, J. Sanders, W. S.
Barr, J. Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. Sexton, T. M.
Bellenger, F. Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) Shinwell, E.
Benson, G. Kelly, W. T. Short, A.
Bevan, A. Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. Silverman, S. S.
Broad, F. A. Lansbury, Rt. Hon. G. Simpson, F. B.
Brooke, W. Lathan, G. Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) Lawson, J. J. Smith, E. (Stoke)
Buchanan, G. Leach, W. Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly)
Burke, W. A. Lee, F. Smith, T. (Normanton)
Cape, T. Leonard, W. Stephen, C.
Chater, D. Leslie, J. R. Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Cluse, W. S. Logan, D. G. Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Clynes, Rt. Hon. J. R. Lunn, W. Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Cocks, F. S. McEntee, V. La T. Thorne, W.
Cove, W. G. McGhee, H. G. Thurtie, E.
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford MacLaren, A. Tinker, J. J.
Daggar, G. Mainwaring, W. H. Viant, S. P.
Dalton, H. Marklew, E. walkden, A. G.
Dobbie, W. Mathers, G. Walker, J.
Dunn, E. (Bother Valley) Maxton, J. Watkins, F. C.
Ede, J. C. Messer, F. Wilkinson, Ellen
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough E.) Montague, F. Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S.) Williams, T. (Don Valley)
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) Wilson, C. H. (Attercliffe)
Frankel, D. Muff, G. Woods, G. S. (Finsbury)
Gallacher, W. Naylor, T. E. Young, Sir R. (Newton)
Gardner, B. W. Oliver, G H.
Gibbins, J. Paling, W. TELLERS FOR THE NOES—
Green, W. H. (Deptford) Parker, H. J. H. Mr. Whiteley and Mr. Groves.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. Pethlck-Lawrence, F. W.
Mr. SPEAKER

The next Amendment that I select is that which stands in the name of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Don Valley (Mr. T. Williams).