§ 51. Mr. LAWSONasked the Minister of Labour whether he is now in a position to state when the new Regulations of the Unemployment Assistance Board will be ready?
§ The MINISTER of LABOUR (Mr. Ernest Brown)I anticipate that I shall be in a position to lay a draft of these Regulations on 14th July, with a view to their publication that evening.
§ Mr. LAWSONIf these Regulations are going to be laid on 14th July, does the right hon. Gentleman intend that proper consideration shall be given to them; and in order to give proper time to the Debate, when is it intended to operate these Regulations?
§ Mr. BROWNI think time will be given, but that is a matter, of course, for discussion through the usual channels. The intention is to take the decision before this part of the Session ends, but they will not operate until November.
§ Mr. BUCHANANMay I ask the Leader of the House, because this is a question of Parliamentary procedure—the Cabinet have now taken months and months to consider this matter—whether the right hon. Gentleman considers that it is fair to Parliament that between 14th July and 31st July Parliament should meet and discuss the matter, and come to a decision on a matter of this importance, after the Cabinet have taken at least months to deal with it; and in view of that, will the right hon. Gentleman bring forward either the introduction date or delay the operation of the Regulations?
§ Mr. A. BEVANIn view of the last experience that the House had with these Regulations, will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Prime Minister so as to bring these Regulations before the House in a form which will admit of their adequate discussion by the House, so as to protect him from a repetition of what happened before?
§ Mr. BROWNThe answer to that question is that the Regulations will be accompanied by a White Paper, which will give the House the information which it ought to have.
§ Mr. BUCHANANCan the Leader of the House not give us an idea what Parliamentary time will be given?
§ Mr. BEVANOn a point of Order. May I have a reply to my question? Will the right hon. Gentleman make representations to the Prime Minister so that these Regulations may be brought before the House in a form which will admit of their adequate discussion?
§ Mr. SPEAKERThat is not a point of Order.
§ Mr. BUCHANANI have asked the Leader of the House a perfectly fair question. It has taken months for the Government to discuss this matter, and he is giving us possibly a week for Parliament to discuss it. I ask if it is intended to give Parliamentary time to discuss the matter, and—
§ Mr. SPEAKEROrder!
§ Mr. BUCHANANOn foreign affairs you get 50 supplementary questions. It is becoming a scandal.
§ Sir J. SIMONI am quite ready to answer the hon. Gentleman's question. It is true that it has taken considerable time for the Government to reach the conclusions that they are ready to present to the House. That is the thing that has taken some time, but the proposals are to be submitted to the House on the date which my right hon. Friend has mentioned, they are to be accompanied by a White Paper, and there will certainly be adequate time for them to be considered. It must be the wish of everybody, when they have been presented, after due time to have the necessary discussion.
§ Mr. ATTLEEWhat does the right hon. Gentleman mean by adequate time? They have left it to a very late period of the Session, and it is not a matter of one day or two days. The right hon. Gentleman will realise that this is a matter of vital importance. It took a very long discussion before, and it may taken even longer this time.
§ Sir J. SIMONI certainly realise it, and I do not at all mean an interval of one day or two days. I should have 225 thought that that would be quite inadequate and not at all fair. The intention is to snake publication as soon as possible, to accompany it at the same time by a full explanation, to give the House and other interests concerned a fair opportunity of considering them, and at the same time that there should be the necessary debate before the House adjourns.
§ Mr. ATTLEEThe right hon. Gentleman has not answered my question, I was not asking him about the interval; I was asking whether there would be adequate time for a debate, and what he meant by an adequate period for debate.
§ Sir J. SIMONThere was a misunderstanding, and I apologise to the Leader of the Opposition. I did not understand his point. When I spoke of adequate time, I had in mind the observations of the hon. Member below the Gangway. I quite understand that the other point also arises, that there must be proper time for the discussion of what is a very important matter. I could not be expected, I think, to make here and now, across the Table, a specific pronouncement about the period, but I will say that I entirely agree that the time must be fair and adequate.
§ Mr. LAWSONIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that the last Regulations were fully considered in this House and that they broke down because it was said—the Minister said, as well as Members on all sides—that they had not had time thoroughly to understand them? In view of that, is it right that at the fag-end of the Session these Regulations should be put before Members? Would it not be better all round, both for the recipients and for the House, if these Regulations were put off until the autumn?
§ Sir J. SIMONI would remind the hon. Member that for weeks past on all sorts of occasions we have been pressed by hon. Members to produce these Regulations, and I am greatly surprised that the suggestion should now come forward.
§ Mr. MAXTONYou are deliberately keeping them back. You are cheating the House of Commons out of its rights.
§ Sir J. SIMONI feel a certain surprise if it is suggested that if we introduce them now we are producing them too soon.
§ Mr. ATTLEEmay I ask the right hon. Gentleman why, if the Government have now come to a decision, we have to wait until 14th July for the Regulations?
§ Mr. SPEAKERIf hon. Members will give the right hon. Gentleman a chance, they will get an answer.
§ Sir PERCY HARRISAs these Regulations are now ready, will not the right hon. Gentleman consider printing them forthwith so that the House will have a longer opportunity of considering them?
§ Sir J. SIMONThe answer is this. It is desirable, of course, that the Regulations should be in their precise form, which involves drafting, and that, as far as I know, has not yet taken place. It is desirable, too, that they should be accompanied by a White Paper, which, as far as I know, is not yet ready. There is no attempt whatever to keep the Regulations back.
§ Mr. BEVANIn view of the fact that, as the law stands, the House will only be able to accept or reject the Regulations, will the right hon. Gentleman consider making representations to the Prime Minister with a view to the law being amended so as to allow the House of Commons to consider the Regulations in a proper way and thus protect the Government from a repetition of their former humiliation?
§ Mr. MAXTONDoes the right hon. Gentleman realise that if the House is to rise at the time which has been customary in recent years, there will be only five Parliamentary days available to consider, discuss and pass these Regulations after the 14th of the month; and does he further realise that local authorities throughout the country have some interest and concern in the Regulations? I would hate to suggest it so speedily after the Adjournment yesterday, but it seems to me that this is an occasion for moving the Adjournment, of the House, and I hope that the Leader of the Opposition will take that step.
§ Mr. CHURCHILLMay I ask the Home Secretary how long an interval after the 14th is to elapse before the Debate is to be held?
§ Sir J. SIMONThat must really be ascertained through the ordinary process of consultation. I have already said that I entirely agree that it cannot be an interval of a day or so. At the same time, I think it is a case for consulting the different parts of the House to find what would be the most convenient interval.
§ Colonel GRETTONIn view of the obvious desire of the House, will the right hon. Gentleman publish these Regulations before 14th July?
§ Sir J. SIMONAs far as my information goes, I do not think the draft Regulations have been received from the board, but I can assure my right hon. and gallant Friend that the date selected has not been selected with any idea of delay at all. It is the earliest date.
§ Mr. ATTLEEHaving regard to the fact that this is a very complicated matter and has taken 16 months to consider, and that the Cabinet have had a long time to discuss it, it is not fair to ask the House to come to a consideration of these Regulations at the fag-end of the Session with hardly any time to consider them and only a short time to debate them; and unless the Government are prepared to print the Regulations forthwith and let us have them, the matter should be postponed until the autumn.
§ Sir J. SIMONSurely the best course would be for the Regulations to be Printed and circulated with the accompanying White Paper. I do not think that it is possible for any of us to form a conclusion of the amount of discussion they will require without knowing what they are. I agree that they will require to be carefully considered and fully discussed. I think we must leave the matter like that.
§ Mr. SPEAKERWe cannot pursue this matter indefinitely.
§ Mr. LOGANI have not spoken once this Session. This is a very important question, and I ask your leave to put a question.
§ Mr. SPEAKERSupplementaries on the question at Question Time must now be brought to a conclusion.