§ Section nineteen of the Finance Act, 1920 (which, as amended by Section twenty-two of the Finance Act, 1924, and Section eight of the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1931, makes provison for a deduction in respect of relative or other person taking charge of widowers' or widows' children or acting as housekeeper), shall be extended so as to apply to a person resident with an unmarried person in the capacity of housekeeper, and in the said Section the expressions "widower" and "widow" shall be deemed to include, respectively, a husband living apart from his wife and a wife living apart from her husband.—[Mr. McGhee.]
§ Brought up, and read the First time.
§ 10.22 p.m.
§ Mr. McGHEEI beg to move, "That the Clause be read a Second time.
We say that a young unmarried woman who establishes her own home should be allowed some deduction in respect of the housekeeper whom she employs. We suggest that she ought not to be expected to go home from her work and spend what ought to be leisure hours in looking after the house, cooking food and so on. A widow in similar circumstances would get this allowance, and it is only just that it should be extended to unmarried persons who employ housekeepers. At 940 the present time, if a woman having children is deserted by her husband, and goes out to work and employs a housekeeper, she gets no allowance. We maintain she ought to get an allowance, because she cannot be expected to earn sufficient to provide for her children and herself and at the same time look after those children and the home. I have in mind a case of a man having three children whose business takes him away from his home for four or five days every week. Last year his wife suddenly disappeared and he has been forced to employ a housekeeper to look after the children. He can get no statutory deduction. Obviously it is impossible for such a man to stay at home to look after the children and to go out to earn a living.
We think that in cases where people are genuinely employing a housekeeper to look after their homes they ought to get a deduction. In the case to which I have referred the man is employing a distant relative and is doing his best in very difficult circumstances to bring up his three children, to educate them and to give them a start in life. We appeal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give some slight consideration to these very hard cases. This deduction of £20 or £25 941 would mean a great deal to these people and we urge the Chancellor by this new Clause to give some slight consideration to this very worthy class of persons.
§ 10.25 p.m.
§ Mr. T. SMITHI support the proposed new Clause. Last year we had a discussion on a similar Clause and I hope that the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary will give the proposal more favourable consideration to-night than it received on that occasion. With regard to the extension of the housekeeper allowance to unmarried people, hon. Members in the course of the year receive many cases proving the necessity for a provision of this kind. Last year I cited the case of a woman, unmarried and out of work, who was compelled to have a housekeeper and who, because she was unmarried, could get no allowance for that housekeeper. The circumstances of life are such that all women cannot be married and many must remain spinsters all their lives. Circumstances may compel an unmarried woman to have a housekeeper, and this allowance ought to be extended to such cases. In regard to the case of married people who are separated; the right hon. Gentleman the present Secretary of State for War who was Financial Secretary last year said among other things, that if this proposal were carried it would tend to encourage married couples to separate. I have heard some absurd speeches from the right hon. Gentleman. He made one, I believe, yesterday, but I never heard a more absurd statement than that. His exact words were:
It would lead directly to the position that it would be to the advantage of husband and wife to separate. They would be much better off each living under a separate roof and each employing a housekeeper, than they would be if they remained together."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, 19th June, 1935; col. 510, Vol. 303.]Any man who makes such a statement does not understand much about married life, particularly among the working class. When working-class people separate, it is not for the purpose of getting an allowance from the Income Tax authorities. It is generally more serious than that and the Committee is entitled to hear more cogent arguments against this new Clause than those which were advanced last year. There are many men separated from their wives and compelled to employ housekeepers, not 942 because they particularly want to do so, but because of family circumstances and this provision ought to be extended to the husband living apart from a wife or the wife living apart from the husband. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Financial Secretary will be big enough on this occasion to accept the new Clause. They did not oppose the proposal last year on the ground of expense, and we think that there is an anomaly here that ought to be removed.
§ 10.29 p.m.
§ Sir JOSEPH NALLI have no doubt that the hon. Members who have moved and supported this new Clause mean well, and there is a certain amount of force behind the case which they have put to the Committee, but I cannot think that the new Clause, as drafted, is one that ought to be approved by this Committee. If this allowance is to be granted, for instance, in respect of an unmarried person living with a married man who is separated from his wife, why not grant it in respect of a married person in the same circumstances? There is no limit to the number of domiciles which a man might keep with a separate housekeeper in each. As the Clause is drafted, it would appear that a claimant might live in one place with his wife and in another place without his wife, but with someone else, and so on, until he had no taxable income left. I suggest that the Committee should not give any sanction to a new Clause of this kind, however laudable its real intentions may be.
§ 10.30 p.m.
§ Mr. W. S. MORRISONI do not wish to oppose the proposed Clause on the ground that it will have the terrifying results set out by the hon. Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall). It is one of those proposals where a strong case can be made for an extension of allowances and where one can raise hard cases. We have not, however, to decide such questions on particular hard cases, but in an endeavour to try and get a body of general law which is adequate to the general body of taxpayers. I am afraid that to go from step to step with these allowances, as has been suggested, would involve such an expenditure in the long run that it could not be accepted. Let us look at the history of this matter. It was in 1918 that the housekeeper allowance was first 943 granted, and it was confined to widowers with young children. The argument for giving children who have been deprived of their mother the services of a resident housekeeper and providing for an Income Tax allowance for her was very strong and one that could not be resisted. The matter was continually agitated, and the next step was made in 1924, when the allowance was given to widowers and widows, whether they had children or not. Now we are asked to extend it still further and give the housekeeper's allowance to unmarried people and to husbands and wives living apart. Why stop there?
It may be said that we have exhausted the category, but there is no good ground for stopping anywhere unless you stop at some particular place. In the case of a husband and wife living apart, it would be almost impossible to exclude the allowance being paid to both. They are now taxed as if they are single persons and they would both be able to get the allowance. We must call a halt somewhere.
§ 10.25 p.m.
§ Mr. BENSONI agree with the hon. and learned Gentleman that it was very easy to put up a case for this new Clause. The difficulty seems to be to put up a case against it. We have had quoted to us the case made out last year by the present Secretary of State for War, and we have had two speeches made against the Clause. I am not sure whether the
§ Financial Secretary this year has very greatly improved on the case of the Financial Secretary last year. If I understand it the case made by the hon. and gallant Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) is that under this Clause a man might go on collecting housekeepers until he had no income left. The Financial Secretary, going one better, suggests that people might go on collecting housekeepers until the Chancellor got no revenue left. Those are not very serious arguments. Our proposal merely is that where a person is responsible for a house and has to have a housekeeper, in other words where a man who is not married and living alone has to have a housekeeper, just as a husband has a wife to look after his house, he should have something which corresponds to—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw!"] I apologise if I said anything I should not have said.
§ The CHAIRMANI thought the remark came from another quarter.
§ Mr. BENSONThen I apologise for the other quarter. I merely suggest that where a person is more or less in the position of a married man—I am going to finish my sentence this time—he should at any rate have all the benefits of a married person's allowance.
§ Question put, "That the Clause be read a Second time."
§ The Committee divided: Ayes, 128; Noes, 236.
947| Division No. 239.] | AYES. | [10.38 p.m. |
| Adams, D. (Consett) | Davies, S. O. (Merthyr) | Henderson, J. (Ardwick) |
| Adams, D. M. (Poplar, S.) | Dobble, W. | Henderson, T. (Tradeston) |
| Adamson, W. M. | Dunn, E. (Rother Valley) | Holdsworth, H. |
| Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.) | Ede, J. C. | Holland, A. |
| Ammon, C. G. | Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty) | Jagger, J. |
| Anderson, F. (Whitehaven) | Evans, D. O. (Cardigan) | Jenkins, A. (Pontypool) |
| Banfield, J. W. | Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H. | Jenkins, Sir W. (Neath) |
| Barnes, A. J. | Foot. D. M. | Johnston, Rt. Hon. T. |
| Barr, J. | Frankel, D. | Jones, A. C. (Shipley) |
| Batey, J. | Gallacher, W. | Jones, H. Haydn (Merioneth) |
| Bellenger, F. | Gardner, B. W. | Jones, Morgan (Caerphilly) |
| Benson, G. | Garro Jones, G. M. | Kelly, W. T. |
| Bevan, A. | George, Major G. Lloyd (Pembroke) | Kennedy, Rt. Hon. T. |
| Broad, F. A. | George, Megan Lloyd (Anglesey) | Kirby, B. V. |
| Bromfield, W. | Gibbins, J. | Kirkwood, D. |
| Brooke, W. | Graham, D. M. (Hamilton) | Lathan, G. |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. J. (S. Ayrshire) | Green, W. H. (Deptford) | Lawson, J. J. |
| Buchanan, G. | Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. | Lee, F. |
| Burke, W. A. | Grenfell, D. R. | Leonard, W. |
| Cape, T. | Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.) | Leslie, J. R. |
| Charleton, H. C. | Griffiths, G. A. (Hemsworth) | Logan, D. G. |
| Cluse, W. S. | Griffiths, J. (Llanelly) | McGhee, H. G. |
| Compton, J. | Groves, T. E. | MacLaren, A. |
| Cove, W. G. | Hall, G. H. (Aberdare) | Maclean, N. |
| Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford | Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel) | MacMillan. M. (Western Isles) |
| Daggar, G. | Hardie, G. D. | MacNeill, Weir, L. |
| Dalton, H. | Harris, Sir P. A. | Mander, G. le M. |
| Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd) | Henderson, A. (Kingswinford) | Marklew, E. |
| Maxton, J. | Richards, R. (Wrexham) | Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth) |
| Messer, F. | Ritson, J. | Thurtle, E. |
| Milner. Major J. | Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.) | Tinker, J. J. |
| Montague, F. | Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens) | Viant, S. P. |
| Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Ha'kn'y, S) | Rowson, G. | Walker, J. |
| Morrison, R. C. (Tottenham, N.) | Seely, Sir H. M. | Watkins, F. c. |
| Muff, G. | Sexton, T. M. | Watson, W. McL. |
| Naylor, T. E. | Short, A. | Westwood, J. |
| Oliver, G. H. | Silkin, L. | White, H. Graham |
| Owen, Major G. | Sinclair, Rt. Hon. Sir A. (C'thn's) | Williams, E. J. (Ogmore) |
| Parker, J. | Smith, E. (Stoke) | Williams, T. (Don Valley) |
| Parkinson, J. A. | Smith, Rt. Hon. H. B. Lees- (K'ly) | Young, Sir R.(Newton) |
| Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. | Smith, T. (Normanton) | |
| Potts, J. | Sorensen, R. W. | TELLERS FOR THE AYES.— |
| Price, M. P. | Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng) | Mr. Mathers and Mr. Whiteley. |
| Pritt, D. N. | Strauss, G. R.(Lambeth, N.) | |
| NOES | ||
| Acland-Troyte, Lt.-Col. G. J. | Duggan, H. J. | Lloyd, G. W. |
| Adams, S. V. T. (Leeds, W.) | Duncan, J. A.L. | Locker-Lampson, Comdr. O. S. |
| Agnew, Lieut.-Comdr. P. G. | Dunglass, Lord | Loftus, P. C. |
| Albery, I. J. | Eckersley, P. T. | Lovat-Fraser, J. A. |
| Aske, Sir R. W. | Edmondson, Major Sir J. | Lumley, Capt. L. R. |
| Assheton, R. | Elliston, G. S. | Lyons, A. M. |
| Baldwin-Webb, Col. J. | Emery, J. F. | Mabane, W. (Huddersfield) |
| Balfour, G. (Hampstead) | Emmott, C. E. G. C. | M'Connell, Sir J. |
| Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet) | Emrys-Evans, P. V. | McCorquodale, M. S |
| Balneil, Lord | Erskine Hill, A.G. | McKie, J. H. |
| Beaumont, Hon. R. E. B. (Portsm'h) | Everard, W. L. | Magnay, T. |
| Beit, Sir A. L. | Fildes, Sir H. | Maitland, A. |
| Bernays, R. H. | Findlay, Sir E. | Makins, Brig.-Gen. E. |
| Birchall, Sir J. D. | Fleming, E. L. | Manningham-Buller, Sir M. |
| Blindell, Sir J. | Fremantle, Sir F. E. | Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R. |
| Bossom, A. C. | Gibson, C. G. | Markham, S. F. |
| Bracken, B. | Gluckstein, L. H. | Mason, Lt.-Col. Hon. G. K. M. |
| Braithwaite, Major A. N. | Graham, Captain A. C.(Wirral) | Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J. |
| Brass, Sir W. | Gretton, Col. Rt. Hon. J. | Meller, Sir R. J. (Mitcham) |
| Briscoe, Capt. R. G. | Gridley, Sir A. B. | Mellor, Sir J. S. P.(Tamworth) |
| Brocklebank, C. E. R. | Grimston, R. V. | Mills, Sir F. (Leyton, E.) |
| Brown, Rt. Hon. E. (Leith) | Gritten, W. G. Howard | Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest) |
| Brawn, Brig.-Gen. H. C. (Newbury) | Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor) | Mitcheson, Sir G. G. |
| Browne, A. C. (Belfast, W.) | Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll, N.W.) | Morris-Jones, Dr. J. H. |
| Bull, B.B. | Gunston, Capt. D. W. | Morrison, G.A.(Scottish Univ's.) |
| Bullock, Capt. M. | Guy, J. C. M. | Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester) |
| Burghley, Lord | Hacking, Rt. Hon. D. H. | Munro, P. |
| Butler, R. A. | Hamilton, Sir G. C. | Nall, Sir J. |
| Campbell, Sir E. T. | Hanbury, Sir C. | Neven-Spence, Maj. B. H. H. |
| Cartland, J. R. H. | Hannah, I. C. | Nicolson, Hon. H. G. |
| Carver, Major W. H. | Hannon, Sir P. J. H. | O'Neill, Major Rt. Hon. Sir Hugh |
| Cary, R. A. | Haslam, Sir J. (Bolton) | Orr-Ewing, I. L. |
| Castlereagh, Viscount | Hellgers, Captain F. F. A. | Palmer, G. E. H. |
| Cszalet, Thelma (Islington, E.) | Heneage, Lieut.-Colonel A. P. | Patrick, C. M. |
| Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. N. (Edgb't'n) | Hopburn, P. G. T. Buchan- | Peake, O. |
| Channon, H. | Hepworth, J. | Peat, C. U. |
| Chapman, A.(Rutherglen) | Herbert, Major J. A. (Mcnmouth) | Penny, Sir G. |
| Christie, J. A. | Herbert, Captain S. (Abbey) | Perkins, W. R. D. |
| Clarry, Sir Reginald | Hills, Major Rt. Hon. J. W. (Rlpon) | Pethick-Lawrence, F. W. |
| Colman, N. C. D. | Holmes, J. S. | Pilkington, R. |
| Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J. | Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J. | Ponsonby, Col. C. E. |
| Cook, T. R. A. M.(Norfolk N.) | Hopkinson, A. | Radford, E. A. |
| Cooke, J.D. (Hammersmith, S.) | Hore-Belisha, Rt. Hon. L | Raikes, H. V. A. M. |
| Cooper, Rt. Hn. T. M. (E'nburgh,W.) | Horsbrugh, Florence | Ramsbotham, H. |
| Courtauld, Major J.S. | Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.) | Ramsden, Sir E. |
| Craddock, Sir R. H. | Hudson, R.S.(Southport) | Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin) |
| Craven-Ellis, W. | Hulbert, N. J. | Rayner, Major R. H. |
| Critchley, A. | Hunter, T. | Reed, A. C. (Exeter) |
| Crooke, J. S. | Jackson, Sir H. | Reid, Sir D. D. (Down) |
| Crookshank, Capt. H. F. c. | James, Wing-Commander A. W. | Reid, W. Allan (Derby) |
| Croom-Johnson, R. P. | Jones, L.(Swansea, W.) | Remer, J.R. |
| Crowder, J. F. E. | Keeling, E. H. | Rickards, G. W. (Skipton) |
| Cruddas, Col. B. | Kerr, H.W.(Oldham) | Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool) |
| Culverwell, C. T. | Kerr, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.) | Ropner, Colonel L. |
| Davidson, Rt. Hon. Sir J. C. C. | Lamb, Sir J. Q. | Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'ndtrry) |
| Davies, C. (Montgomery) | Latham, Sir P. | Ross Taylor, W. (Woodbridge) |
| Davies, Major G. F.(Yeovil) | Law, R. K.(Hull, S. W.) | Ruggles-Brise, Colonel Sir E. A. |
| Davison, Sir W.H. | Leckie, J. A. | Russell, A. West (Tynemouth) |
| Dawson, Sir P. | Leech, Dr. J. W. | Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen) |
| Denman, Hon. R. D. | Lees-Jones, J. | Salmon, Sir I. |
| Denville, Alfred | Lennox-Boyd, A. T. L. | Salt, E. W. |
| Dorman-Smith, Major R. H. | Levy, T. | Samuel, M.R. A. (Putney) |
| Dower, Capt. A. V. G. | Lewis, O. | Sanderson, Sir F. B. |
| Duckworth, G. A. V. (Salop) | Lindsay, K. M. | Sandys, E. D. |
| Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side) | Little, Sir E. Graham- | Sassoon, Rt. Hon. Sir P. |
| Dugdale, Major T. L. | Llewellin, Lieut.-Col.J. J. | Savery, Servington |
| Selley, H. R. | Strickland, Captain W. F. | Ward, Irene (Wallsend) |
| Shaw, Major P. S. (Wavertree) | Stuart, Hon. J. (Moray and Nairn) | Warrender, Sir V. |
| Shepperson, Sir E. W. | Sutcliffe, H. | Waterhouse, Captain C. |
| Smiles, Lieut.-Colonel Sir W. D. | Tasker, Sir R. I. | Wells, S. R. |
| Smith, Bracewell (Dulwich) | Tate, Mavis C. | Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.) |
| Smith, L. W. (Hallam) | Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.) | Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin) |
| Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe) | Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford) | Windsor-Clive, Lieut.-Colonel G. |
| Somerville, D. G. (Willesden, E.) | Touche, G. C. | Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl |
| Southby, Comdr. A. R. J. | Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C. | Wragg, H. |
| Spender-Clay, Lt.-Cl. Rt. Hn. H. H. | Tufnell, Lieut.-Com. R. L. | Young, A. S. L. (Partick) |
| Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde) | Turton, R. H. | |
| Stanley, Rt. Hon. Oliver (W'm'l'd) | Wakefield, W. W. | TELLERS FOR THE NOES.— |
| Stourton, Major Hon. J. J. | Walker-Smith, Sir J. | Lieut.-Colonel Sir A. Lambert |
| Strauss, H. G. (Norwich) | Wallace, Captain Euan | Ward and Mr. Cross. |