HC Deb 11 June 1936 vol 313 cc498-501

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

9.20 p.m.

Mr. BATEY

The right hon. Gentleman will notice that there is a paragraph in this Clause which makes an alteration in the Act of 1929. The paragraph reads: Every minute of the Secretary of State or the Treasury granting a pension under this sub-section to a person who retires from the said office on the ground of age, before attaining the age of 60 years, shall set forth the amount of the pension and the reasons for the grant, and shall be laid before Parliament. The Act of 1911 laid down the conditions that the Governor must have had 10 years' service and be 60 years of age before he could draw a pension. This Clause seems to allow a. Governor to retire on pension before he is 60 years of age. Can the Governor receive a pension before he is 60 years of age, contrary to the Act of 1911?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

Yes, on a medical certificate countersigned by the Secretary of State.

Mr. BATEY

Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us where the medical certificate comes in?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

The medical certificate comes in in the reference to the minute. The Secretary of State has to be satisfied that by reason of his service his health is such that he ought to retire before the age of 60.

Mr. BATEY

But there is nothing in this Bill to say that there must be a medical certificate.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

My recollection is that there was something in the Act of 1929 to make it clear that he can retire before the ordinary pensionable age if by reason of his service his health does not permit him to continue in office.

9.21 p.m.

Mr. KELLY

There is nothing in this Clause about health conditions. It speaks about retiring on the ground of age, and age only, talks only about retiring before the age of 60. This seems to give an opportunity for him to retire without regard to his health, if only the Minister is satisfied.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

Yes, I think that is true. This certificate which has to be issued by the Secretary of State and countersigned by the Treasury, is in the form of a certificate having relation to age; but in many cases that would undoubtedly be clone on medical advice, only it is not for the medical officer to decide but for the Secretary of State to decide. It could be issued on the grounds that though he is fit in this country, not suffering from organic disease, it would be undesirable, having regard to his age and general condition, to send him back to the Tropics. It might also be because he had reached the retiring age for the Tropics and there was no further employment in view for him.

Mr. BATEY

Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this point before the Bill goes to another place in order to make sure what the position is?

9.23 p.m.

Mr. WATKINS

Is what is involved in this anything more than the usual arrangement which is common, I think, to all superannuation schemes and which permits the granting of a breakdown or invalidity pension on the strength of medical evidence?

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

I fancy that is so, but I will look into the exact position. I think it is the kind of provision which is in most superannuation Acts.

Mr. G. GRIFFITHS

This Clause speaks only about a man who retires before the age of 60 on the ground of age, not of sickness or inability. He can retire before 60 though he may be "as sound as a bell," according to this Clause.

9.24 p.m.

Mr. LUNN

The Colonial Secretary, who is new to his office, has promised to look into this matter; but this all shows that even small Bills, as they are called, ought to be carefully considered. And where are the right hon. Gentleman's advisers? If they are here they ought to know what the position is. The right hon. Gentleman has suggested that the provision to enable a man to retire on this excuse before he is 60 years of age may be found in the 1929 Act. It may be, but why is not the 1929 Act here so that we could know what is the fact? I am prepared to accept the right hon. Gentleman's assurance that he will look into the matter, but we ought to have had the information before.

Mr. ORMSBY-GORE

I must defend my adviser. He has sent me a further communication on this rather complicated point. The effect of the Clause is to allow a Governor to retire at approximately the Civil Service retiring age of the tropical colonies, and this is merely extending to the man who goes to the Sudan what is already provided in the 1929 Act for the Colonial Civil Service Governors.

Clause 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the Third time To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.