WIDOWS', ORPHANS' AND OLD AGE CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS BILL [Lords]. (Hansard, 7 July 1936)

§ Mr. TINKER
I wish to raise an objection to the Second Reading of this Bill. When various Measures are consolidated in one Bill it is almost taken for granted that it means the closing of the chapter with regard to that legislation, and I do not want it to be understood that by accepting this consolidating Measure some of us on these benches are agreed about the present position respecting widows' and orphans' pensions. For some time we have been asking for the removal of certain anomalies in the present legislation, but the Government have ignored our requests and have treated us with scant courtesy, and by their action in bringing forward this consolidating 1154 Measure it would appear that they have no intention during the present Parliament of removing some of the anomalies of which we have complained. Legislation on this subject was passed originally in 1925, and certain amendments were made in it subsequently—I believe in 1929—but the working of the legislation has shown that there are many points which call for instant revision, and it is for that reason that I cannot give my consent to the Bill before us, because that might be taken as indicating that we have given way over the points which we think ought to be remedied.
We have constantly pointed out the position of the woman who does not happen to be the same age as her husband—that if she happens to be only 63 when he reaches the age of 65 she cannot get the pension. We have argued on many occasions that that is unfair, but our arguments have been ignored. There has been no reply, really, to the case we have put; it is merely said that it would cost too much money to introduce the reform which we advocate. We have also argued that the present age is too high and ought to be reduced. If we accept this consolidating Measure we shall be regarded as agreeing that no attempt need be made to revise the legislation for some time, because, although I agree with the practice of introducing consolidating Measures, bringing a number of Acts together under one cover, for the convenience of those who wish to consult them, the introduction of such a Measure is generally accepted as closing the chapter for some time at least. We cannot agree to the closing of the chapter in the case of widows' and orphans' pensions, because there are too many anomalies which need to he remedied, and I feel that I should not be doing right if I allowed the Measure to go through without protest.
It may be asked: "Why object to a consolidating Measure? You will not get your point by objecting to it. You will only leave the various Acts scattered about, to be searched for under different covers." That is quite true. I agree that this Bill will remove a lot of difficulties. At the same time, I know the feeling of the House of Commons when a Measure is passed in a consolidating form. If later we were to raise our voice in protest, I can imagine the Minister of Health, in the way that he has of always 1155 remembering the little bits of things which have happened in the past and being ready to urge them against us, saying: "The hon. Member sat opposite me upon a certain night, and I did not hear him raise his voice in protest against the consolidating Measure. He is surely not going to open the whole subject again now." It is because of that, and because I know how many mistakes in the present law need altering, that I am protesting. I cannot agree that this Bill should be passed in its consolidating form while so many anomalies are contained in it, and I trust that it will not be agreed to.

§ Sir JOSEPH NALL
If it appears that the hon. Gentleman has any foundation for saying that this consolidating Bill is to be regarded as closing a chapter finally, and establishing the pensions system upon its present basis, I am sure there will be protests from all quarters of the House. For my part, I take the opposite view. Before the House can, in due course, consider a Bill for the proper removal of the anomalies which now exist and for the further extension of a contributory scheme, it is essential that the existing law should be consolidated. For too long have we withstood the perfectly legitimate claims for the removal of such an anomaly as a childless widow of 30 getting a pension while a spinster of 50, probably incapacitated, cannot get a pension. Situations of that kind cry aloud for immediate revision. The Government are to be congratulated upon this Bill as a first step towards clearing the way for a proper revision of the pensions scheme, the removal of anomalies and the granting of those claims which can properly be made for adjustment.

§ Mr. KELLY
I welcome the presentation of this consolidating Measure, because there will now be an opportunity for people to refer to it instead of to two or three Measures to find out the position with respect to widows', orphans' and old age pensions. They may find out what people are being paid for, and that certain people are paying for pensions who will never receive them because they will never have an opportunity to qualify for them. It may be discovered what 1156 there is in the matter of disqualification. There are some very hard disqualifications. If, for that reason alone, the Government bring to the notice of people what there is in the Measure, I welcome the consolidation. The hon. Member who introduced this question fears that there may be a period of rest before an attempt is made to remedy the evils from which so many of our people suffer—widows and children, in cases where the breadwinner has been lost, people who are aged and who are denied a pension because of the contributory scheme. If this Bill means that we have to remain for some time without such evils being remedied, I should be inclined to oppose the consolidation. I hope the country will realise, when it sees this Measure in this form, what requires to be done, and that there will be a speedy move to remedy the evils under which many widows and children, spinsters and others, suffer at the present time.

§ Mr. SHAKESPEARE
I have only a few observations to make upon the protest which was made by the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker). First I would say that no Government would assume that, because the Opposition did not oppose a Consolidation Bill, they accepted all the principles laid down in it. That has never been the case, and, that being so, the hon. Member must not infer that, because the Government wish to simplify this legislation by consolidation, that thereby closes the door to all reform. Certainly that has never been the principle upon which any Government that I can remember has operated. My hon. Friend the Member for Hulme (Sir J. Nall) stated the position more fairly when he pointed out that, so far from closing the door, the consolidation of complicated legislation is very often the preliminary to amendment of the law; indeed, it cannot be carried out unless consolidation has first been achieved. The hon. Gentleman will realise that we are also consolidating the legislation relating to National Health Insurance, and that my right hon. Friend has promised next year to amend that legislation in further important respects. Therefore, there is no ground for the apprehensions which the hon. Gentleman expressed in the last, part of his speech.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a Second time.