POST OFFICE.

HC Deb 27 February 1936 vol 309 cc800-20

Motion made, and Question proposed, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,150,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Post Office, including Telegraphs and Telephones.

11.32 p.m.

Mr. BEVAN

Would the Patronage Secretary be good enough to say how far he proposes to go? It is now half-past Eleven and we still lave a very long agenda. We ought to have some indication from him as to how long he expects to have to keep us. We sit until very late night after night. The Government are overloading the programme and we are bound to have difficulty, and it will be repeated day after day. This Government ought to have more consideration for the House and should get these very important questions taken at a reasonable hour.

11.33 p.m.

The PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY to the TREASURY (Captain Margesson)

I should think that the best course to pursue would be for the hon. Gentleman who is in charge of the Opposition to put that question to me after this Vote has been disposed of, by which time I shall have found out whether we can report Progress. On behalf of the Government I will have consultations with those who are in charge of the Opposition and I shall be in a position to make a statement.

Mr. BEVAN

On a point of Order. Any hon. Member is perfectly entitled, and has exactly the same status, as any other Member.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member seems to be giving a Ruling. He said he was rising to a point of Order.

Mr. BEVAN

Yes, I am putting a point of Order. As a Member of this House, I asked the Patronage Secretary a question, to which, at the moment, no reply has been given. I asked him how far he expected the Committee to proceed and I am suggesting that I am entitled to a courteous reply. Every Member of this House—

The CHAIRMAN

There is no point of Order in this.

Mr. BEVAN

I am entitled to an answer to my question.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member must understand that a Minister cannot be compelled to give a particular answer to a particular question, any more than a Minister can interfere with the form of any question that any hon. Member chooses to ask. The hon. Member's point is not a point of Order.

11.34 p.m.

The POSTMASTER-GENERAL (Major Tryon)

We have had, hitherto, Supplementary Estimates which involved some burden on the taxpayers. I want to make it clear that this Supplementary Estimate, which amounts to £2,150,000—[Interruption]—Perhaps the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. A. Bevan) will allow me to proceed. We are not asking for more money from the taxpayers.— I [Interruption.]

The CHAIRMAN

I must ask the hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Bevan) to keep reasonable order.

Major TRYON

This sum, which we are asking the Committee to give us authority to spend, is almost balanced by increase in the revenue of the Post Office; in other words, the necessity for the Supplementary Estimate is due to the fact that a larger business has been done by the Post Office. I think the Committee will regard that as satisfactory. The increase is due to various and satisfactory causes. It is partly due to a greater activity generally in all branches of trade, and partly to the increased work which the Post Office has been able to get through the reductions which have been made in the rates for carrying parcels, in the charge for telegrams, and in the telephone charges.

The additional expenditure which I am asking the Committee to authorize is mainly under four big heads. The restoration of the cuts since the 1st July accounts for £449,000 and the growth of the business done by the Post Office for £901,000. This growth has included increases of 10 per cent. in parcels, 30 per cent. in inland telegrams, and 16 per cent. in telephone calls, while the number of telephones has increased by 8 per cent. Engineering expenditure is up by £330,000, and we are replenishing stores to the amount of £450,000. I should like to make it quite clear that this additional expenditure is due to the Post Office policy of active development. We are actively developing the work of the Department, and we are doing a bigger trade both on the expenditure side and on the revenue side. I hope the Committee will see fit to grant the sum for which we ask.

11.38 p.m.

Mr. VIANT

We are pleased to hear the statement of the Postmaster-General with reference to the increased business that is being done by the Post Office. There are a few points on which I think the Committee will be interested to have a little more information. I notice that Sub-head B—Travelling and Subsistence Allowances—shows a considerable increase. Is this in any way due to the new organisation that is taking place in the Post Office as a result of the recommendations of the Bridgeman Committee? I observe, also, that in Sub-head E.5 there is an increase of £155,000 for mails carried by air. Is this due to an extraordinary development of the air mail services? The Department undoubtedly anticipated a certain amount of business in that direction, and I gather from the Supplementary Estimate that their anticipations have been exceeded. On the Sub-head for Motor Vehicles there is an increase of £28,000. Is this due to improved motor services in rural areas. If so it will he welcomed by the community as a whole. On Sub-head 1.2, Engineering Establishments, again travelling subsistence is up by £40,000. Is that due to the re-organisation that has taken place? On Sub-head L (3), Engineering Construction Works and Maintenance, there is an increase of £100,000. What exactly is the meaning of that? I hazard a guess that probably the expenditure was in respect to mail vans, but I am not quite sure. Under Sub-head B, Wireless Broadcasting, there is an increase of £65,000. How did this arise? Under Sub-head A.1 there is a considerable increase. Is that due to an increase of staff or to overtime? On Sub-head A.5, is this an increase of staff or has there been, or is there to be, a considerable amount of overtime work? I raise the question of overtime because it is very desirable that the Post Office should set a good example to private employers. When unemployment is prevalent overtime is not a sound policy. I am pleased to see that there has been such a considerable increase in the business being done by the Post Office. When I was on the other side we were compelled, especially in the engineering department, to reduce the staff. If the alternative is the case now no one will welcome that more than I and my colleagues.

11.44 p.m.

Mr. E. SMITH

Earlier in the evening I congratulated the First Commissioner of Works on the improved architecture and general layout and conveniences of modern post offices. I also raised a question about which we did not obtain satisfaction, and therefore I want to raise it on this saving that has been made. When old age pensions are being paid or on a Friday night, the post offices are packed with people. I am not too concerned about Friday nights, but I am concerned about old age pensioners having to stand about waiting to draw their pension. I should like the Minister to consider the provision of seating accommodation in post offices, so that the old age pensioners and others may sit down instead of having to stand about.

The CHAIRMAN

I do not think that the hon. Member can raise that matter. I am unable to see any item in this Supplementary Estimate to which it would be relevant.

Mr. SMITH

I am trying to bring it in on the saving by the Revenue Department in connection with the Supplementary Estimate on pages 20 and 21. I suggest that if this accommodation had been provided a saving to the extent stated would not have been made.

The CHAIRMAN

The hon. Member cannot do that on a supplementary estimate unless there is a particular item in that estimate to which it relates, but he can raise the question on the main Estimate.

Mr. SMITH

There has been a saving on contract work under one or two headings. Here is an example—the new Post Office in Euston Road, which is a credit to the Post Office.

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid that the hon. Member does not follow my point. The fact that there has been a saving upon certain items on the part of the post office does not justify him, on a supplementary estimate, in raising the matter as to how the savings should be spent or what extra expenditure should have been made. There is nothing in this Supplementary Estimate connected with the building of post offices.

Major TRYON

They are provided by the Office of Works.

Mr. SMITH

What, is your ruling, Sir Dennis?

The CHAIRMAN

It is clear that there is nothing in the Supplementary Estimate upon which the hon. Member can raise the matter.

Mr. SMITH

There is another point, and I shall thank you, Sir Dennis, for your ruling in connection with it. There is an understanding among a few people —it is by no means general—that the Post Office provides facilities for the unemployed who write for jobs. Would the Minister consider giving greater publicity to these facilities in order that more persons can take advantage of them? In addition to this, advice is given in post offices on National Health Insurance. A leaflet issued by the Minister of Health is placed on the counters for the advice of the unemployed. Will the Minister consider giving additional publicity to this advice?

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid that the hon. Member is again going beyond the limits of the Supplementary Estimate. Discussion must be confined absolutely and strictly to the particular items of the Supplementary Estimate. Here again I do net think the point arises, but it will be a help to me, if the hon. Member wishes to proceed, if he makes it clear to me first what item in the Supplementary Estimate it is to which his point relates.

Mr. SMITH

I thank you for that advice, Sir Dennis, and I will endeavour to raise these matters when the main estimate comes before the Committee.

11.49 p.m.

Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS

I wish to put two questions to the Minister. I should like to know whether the cuts imposed upon post office workers in 1931 have all been restored and also whether the right hon. and gallant Gentleman will consider the advisability of seeing that Members of Parliament have their letters stamped free at the Post Office, rather than that they should have to incur expenditure in purchasing stamps? I think that most Members of Parliament will agree with this, and I hope that the Minister will think of them. I am sure that he will earn the gratitude of all Members of the House if he is prepared to set aside from any surplus an equivalent sum to meet the expenditure of Members of Parliament upon stamps.

Mr. R. J. TAYLOR

I should like to call attention to the item relating to provincial establishments. I understand that there have been rather striking alterations made in the Post Office with regard to what is termed regional planning.

The CHAIRMAN

To what item is the hon. Member referring?

Mr. TAYLOR

On page 4, Provincial Establishments, for which £760,000 is asked.

Major TYRON

There is no additional expenditure in connection with these regions; only two have been planned and they are not yet in operation.

Mr. TAYLOR

I want to raise the question of the lowering of the status of t he Newcastle Postmaster. Has the right hon. Gentleman forgotten that Newcastle and the north is a depressed area? While it may be possible to have some measure of efficiency by these alterations, I should like to know whether the alteration from Newcastle to Leeds means a decrease in the number of employes at the Newcastle post office. If so, I submit that even if a slight degree of increased efficiency is obtained, having regard to the distressing circumstances in Newcastle—

The CHAIRMAN

I am afraid that I must ask the hon. Member under what head he raises the question of the Status of Postmaster of Newcastle.

Mr. TAYLOR

We are complaining that the status of the Newcastle exchange has been reduced.

The CHAIRMAN

That matter cannot be discussed on a supplementary estimate. It is one of the difficulties of the Chair as well as of hon. Members, to keep the Debate to points which are strictly confined to the supplementary estimate. The discussion must be confined to the Estimate; to the actual matters relating to this additional sum.

Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS

Could the matter be raised on the salary of the Minister

The CHAIRMAN

I do not think so.

11.57 p.m.

Sir RONALD ROSS

Is there any item in the Supplementary Estimate in respect of submarine and cable charges, because I am unable to find it.

Lieut.-Colonel MOORE-BRABAZON

There is a £125,000 increase in the contract for air mails. Is that wrapped up in the new subsidy under the Bill which is to be introduced or is it entirely at the disposal of the Post Office, to use as it likes?

11.58 p.m.

Mr. McGOVERN

I think it is most disgraceful that an additional estimate for £2,000,000 should be debated at this hour of the night and without any proper explanation from the Minister as to the reasons for this vast expenditure. I do not desire to raise any criticisms of the efficient administration of the Post Office but if the Minister at a board of directors meeting had dismissed the business in a few sentences the company would be looking for another chairman. It is not treating the House with proper courtesy and respect for the Minister to dismiss the subject by saying "Here is the Estimate, pass it" I do not object to the expenditure, it may be justified, but the right hon. Gentleman has not made out a case for it. There is an expenditure of £736,000 for provincial establishments, conveying mails by road £10,000 and by air £155,000, and we have had no explanation of it. I had to send a telegram from Euston to my home in Glasgow. It was despatched at 9.20 in the morning and reached Glasgow at 12 noon. I give this case to suggest that it might be quicker to send telegrams by air, rather than in the usual way.

The CHAIRMAN

I congratulate the hon. Member on his adroitness, but I cannot allow him to pursue that subject.

Mr. McGOVERN

I think that the whole question should be adjourned so that the right hon. Gentleman might give us some better explanation when hon. Members are not so tired as they are now.

12 m.

Major TRYON

I do not complain in the least of the point of view of the hon. Member, but I think it is generally realised that the best plan is for the Minister briefly to explain the general cause for the increase, and then to reply to the points raised by hon. Members. It has been suggested that if the chairman at a company meeting made such a statement as I have made, he would be displaced. I would suggest that if anybody at a company meeting said they were doing much better business than in the previous year, that would be considered satisfactory. This estimate does not mean additional expenditure so much as larger business; it is larger business both on the expenditure and on the revenue side, and therefore the two cancel out. I am sorry I cannot deal with some of the points raised by lion. Members. It would be out of order for me to explain the position at Newcastle. It must be obvious that if, as an hon. Member said, there has been a reduction of status at the Newcastle post office, he cannot be in order in raising that on a demand for money. As a matter of fact, the position at Newcastle remains unchanged.

Mr. R. J. TAYLOR

On a point of Order. The Postmaster-General said that because there has been a reduction in the status of the Newcastle postmaster—

Major TRYON

I said there has been no reduction whatever in the position of the postmaster.

Miss WILKINSON

Before the right hon. and gallant Gentleman leaves that point, I would like to say that some hon. Members are rather concerned about this matter. They have received communications from the Newcastle and District Chamber of Commerce concerning it. Can the right hon. and gallant Gentleman say when it will be in order to raise this matter of the reduction of the status of the Newcastle postmaster?

Major TRYON

The matter is obviously not in order now, and it is not the case that the status of the Newcastle postmaster has been reduced. With regard to the point raised concerning the provision of stamps for Members of Parliament, I cannot deal with an additional charge on the State on this Vote. I certainly would not be prepared to recommend that Members should be given stamps, and I do not think that hon. Members would wish for it.

The hon. Member for West Willesden (Mr. Viant), who has had the pleasure of having been associated with the Post Office, raised a number of points with which I will endeavour to deal in the same clear way in which he raised them. On head B (1) and (2), the increase is clue to more business being done all round, and that involves more work by the staff. With regard to head E (5), the excess payment required is due to a substantial increase in the air-mail carried. I am glad to be able to assure hon. Members opposite that it is largely due to the growth in the Empire air mail service, which alone necessitated almost the whole of this large addition. There was a substantial increase in the weight of mail sent the total weight being 187 tons compared with 152 tons in the previous year. The Empire air-mail has increased by nearly three-quarters. The question of a subsidy does not in any way arise. With regard to head G (1), the increase is not in any way due to motors. It is due to a great increase in business and is required for the purchase of mail bags. The additional sum required for the engineering establishment is partly due to the restoration from 1st July of the remaining half of the economy cuts. It is partly owing to the enormous amount of engineering work due to the reduction in telephone and telegraph charges. There has been great pressure and the higher staff and skilled people have done extra work, and we owe them a great debt for that. But, apart from that, we try to take on extra men rather than have overtime. The extra money authorized in connection with the British Broadcasting Corporation is in respect of the restoration of cuts. In their case they made a voluntary contribution. On balance we are giving them this extra sum, which they gave up voluntarily. In conclusion, I should like to make it quite clear that this is not a demand for a lot of extra money. We are merely asking the Committee to allow us to make additional expenditure which will be met out of extra revenue.

Mr. VIANT

Could the Minister give me any idea of the extent to which he has been able to reinstate the men in the engineering department who were turned off as a result of the slump?

Major TRYON

The Committee will, I am sure, be interested to know that after the reduction in charges on telegrams and telephones and the cheaper parcels rate we are now employing, at the end of a year of these great changes, 9,000 more men than at the beginning, and of that number a large proportion—I think 5,000—are in the engineering department.

12.9 a.m.

Mr. E. SMITH

Questions which I was allowed to put have not been replied to, and in view of the importance of them to the mass of the people in the industrial centres I should like the Minister to be good enough to reply. A question which the Chairman allowed me to put dealt with old-age pensions. It is common to see old people standing about while waiting to draw their old-age pensions. Therefore it is reasonable to ask that seats should be provided. It would be in keeping with the modern policy which the Minister is adopting. The modern policy is to be as bright and as up-to-date as is possible, and this is an economic proposition, as is proved by the Minister. This is one department of State which is keeping up-to-date in modern development, and as a result we see the success of the Post Office, which is reflecting itself in goodwill right throughout the country. I would like a reasonable suggestion of this kind to receive consideration by the Minister. In addition, I have been in post offices and have got advice on national health insurance. In a number one can see the the advice on small slips.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I rather think that that is a question for the main Estimates.

Mr. E. SMITH

I respectfully bow to your ruling but the Chairman allowed me to proceed with that question, though he did rule me out of order on several others.

12.10 a.m.

Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS

We were delighted to hear the Postmaster-General say that the cuts had been restored. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman is a Conservative by politics but we admit that he is a good Postmaster-General and I trust that he is now convinced that the Post Office as a public enterprise is a model for private enterprise. We agree with his effort to cut down overtime as much as possible and encourage as many workmen as possible. In this respect also the Post Office has shown a good example to a great number of private employers who use overtime in order to save money on unemployment and health stamps.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I find it difficult to connect that argument with any item in the Estimate. The hon. Member for Willesden (Mr. Viant) asked whether people had been taken on in the engineering department so as to avoid overtime. That was in order but the hon. Member is now going much further.

Mr. WILLIAMS

I think the right hon. and gallant Gentleman himself intimated that it was the policy of the Department to keep down overtime as much as possible, and it was on that point I desired to speak. If that is the policy of the Post Office we are delighted, and I hope that other employers who keep their workers beyond the normal working day in order to capitalise the value of unemployment stamps—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

Whatever may be the practice in the Post Office, we cannot discuss the case of private employers on this Estimate.

12.14 a.m.

Mr. T. SMITH

There are still one or two queries which we would like the Postmaster-General to deal with and which are, I think, strictly relevant. With regard to the item "Post Office Savings Banks," I am pleased to note an increase of £34,000 in salaries. I wish to know whether that represents an increase in the salaries of the existing staff or a provision for additional staff. I am also pleased to find that there has been an increase in deposits. Only a few years ago doubt was cast by some people on the position of those deposits, but anyone who knows the Post Office, knows that not a single penny of the depositors' money was ever in danger.

Major TRYON

As regards the additional sum of £34,000 for salaries, it is due both to increased salaries of existing staff and provision for new staff. There is much more business and the cuts have been restored.

12.20 a.m.

Miss WILKINSON

We welcome the statement that the Post Office is doing more business. We are glad to note the success of a nationalised industry, but I wish to ask the Postmaster-General whether he has a substantial basis for assuming that this is a healthy increase of business. How much of it is due, for instance, to inflation of business caused by football pools? Literature has been circulated to Members about these pools, in which it is pointed out that over 1,000,000 letters a week are posted in one area alone in connection with these pools. If we multiply that figure by the number of great industrial centres in the country, it will be seen that it means an enormous inflation of Post Office business. There is, I understand, a movement to ask the Government to supervise or even suppress these pools—

The DEPUTY-CHAIR MAN

We cannot go into that matter on the present occasion.

Miss WILKINSON

We are being asked in this Estimate to make additional provision to deal with increased business in the Post Office. We are being asked to vote money, in respect of increased traffic and if that increased traffic arises from something which may be suppressed or severely curtailed in the near future, either by the action of the House of Commons or by the Football League, we are entitled to know. The wisdom may be questioned of handing this money to the Minister to engage in large scale increases of staff and equipment if his estimates of increased busi- ness are based on traffic of the kind I have indicated. There is an item for instance in connection with increased parcels traffic. I understand some of this football pool traffic comes within the parcels department, as vouchers are sent out in parcels. Speaking as one of the shareholders of this vast business I am anxious that it should succeed arid that its business should grow, but we ought to know from the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether the present increase is due to this unhealthy inflation. If so, it seems to me we ought to report Progress and wait until the Postmaster-General has gone into the matter, instead of voting an increase which may prove to be unnecessary.

If, of course, by the reduction in costs or by any increase in the purchasing power of the people or in any other healthy way, the Post Office traffic is increasing, we on this side of the House will be even more anxious that the Government's own supporters should be in favour of every possible assistance being given to a nationalized industry to increase its size and make its equipment the most up-to-date in the world. As to the moral issue involved in this traffic, it is highly desirable that we should know whether that great moral influence, the Football League, is going to take this matter in hand and suppress this unhealthy traffic, and we should know what is in the Government's mind. I am sure the right hon. Gentleman himself, who will have given a great deal of thought to this matter, must now be in a position to tell the Committee what his views are on this vexed question.

Mr. R. J. TAYLOR

I want to ask the Postmaster General about the increase of 9,000 employed by the Post Office, 5,000 of which, said the right hon. and gallant Gentleman were in the engineering department. Is that increase largely due to the very rapid progress which is being made in putting the telephones underground? I notice that there is a profit on the telephones, and I want to compliment him on doing this, because I believe it will prevent to a large extent the periodical dislocation which must be a very great inconvenience to business men. We ought to congratulate the Post Office on keeping this national socialized institution up-to-date. When the Post Office has completed this work, and we all have our telephone cables underground, will they then be safe from lightning and thunder and from the winds that blow? We have been discussing gas bombs and I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is thoroughly satisfied on this matter. I can imagine an enormous waste of public money here if the greatest care is not being taken. Have the most scientific mathematical calculations been made in taking the known weight and charge of the bombs that are being made to-day, quite apart from their being larger and more powerful? Is the Postmaster General satisfied on this point?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I rather think the hon. Member is now getting on to the question of general policy. He must debate that on the main Vote.

Mr. TAYLOR

I thought it was a pertinent question which would come under the heading of "Engineering," because if we do not put these cables deep enough, and there is an air raid and they are broken, they might just as well have been left above ground.

12.26 p.m.

Mr. LOGAN

I wish to raise the question of the increased expenditure on the conveyance of mails by road. The original estimate was £385,000, and now it is £395,000. One should compliment the Post Office on an increase of business, but I am a little perturbed about certain things which are happening outside and of which hon. Members must be fully aware, and I wonder whether the Postmaster-General is considering the possibility that this extra expenditure may not be necessary. If certain things happen there may be a reduction in the number of communications which the Post Office is called upon to transmit. Is this Estimate based on present business, or has the Minister contemplated the possibility of a reduction in the business? In my own constituency there is a firm with a turnover of at least £2,400,000 a year, and most of that is done through the services provided by the Post Office. If certain developments should take place and that business should no longer be carried on, there will be no necessity for the services of some 15 or 20 mail vans, as far as I can understand.

Under "Motor vehicles" I see an increase of £28,000, and I know what the Post Office has done in connection with football pools, and so on, but I would remind the Postmaster-General that this is rather a fickle business, that public opinion may alter, and then there may have to be a reduction of the staff and the vehicles of the Post Office. My third point is that depreciation is a heavy item with motor vehicles. If you bought one only a couple of weeks ago—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I do not think the hon. Member could have been in the House when the Minister stated that the particular increase was due to mail bags.

Mr. LOGAN

E.5 refers to "Postal and general stores and motor vehicles." I am not able to make motor vehicles out of mail bags.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

But the Minister has explained that the increase was due to extra mail bags.

Mr. E. J. WILLIAMS

But it is not clear that mail bags are carried by these vehicles?

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

It does not necessarily mean that there must be an increase in the number of vehicles.

Mr. LOGAN

I am not putting this with any levity. We have had an increase of vehicles in Liverpool. I am not able to understand why I cannot raise this question when motor vehicles are mentioned as a separate item.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

There is no question of motor vehicles under this Estimate.

Mr. LOGAN

Is it possible to bring it in under the heading "&c."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I am afraid not.

Mr. LOGAN

Turning then, to E2, "Conveyance of Mails by Road (Contract Work)." I would like to know from the Minister whether additional carriers, in the form of vans, have been added to the service, and if so, whether any arrangement has been made for depreciation. A sum of £395,000 is going into the hands of the contractors.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That is a question for the main Estimate, not for this occasion.

Mr. LOGAN

I find that the £395,000 is—

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That item has already been approved and settled. All that the hon. Member can deal with here is the £10,000 increase.

Mr. LOGAN

The question I am dealing with is the conveyance of mails by road, and we have to consider the purchase of the vans, and I am wondering why, when we pay a huge sum like this, which includes the £10,000 increase, it is not possible for the Post Office to take over the whole business on their own.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

I have already told the hon. Member that that is a point that he cannot raise on this occasion.

Mr. LOGAN

It is very hard. When one looks at the question from the business point of view, one would suppose that the Postmaster-General would think that there was something in it and would see whether economies could not be effected. Is it not possible for some saving to be made on the contracts we are giving out? One would think that in payment by contract one would not have to pay so large a sum, considering that the work is continuous and the money secure. It is not possible in every business to get the security of Government money. I wonder whether this additional £10,000 is justified, or whether this work could not be done at a cheaper rate. A new broom sweeps clean, and I should have thought that the new Minister might have been able to see that something was done to effect a £10,000 economy.

12.38 a.m.

Mr. PALING

I want to refer to a question which was previously raised by the hon. Member for Wolverhampton East (Mr. Mander). It is a matter that was brought up at question time on several days, and discussed on the adjournment, but no satisfaction was obtained. In this case a contractor was paying rates of wages which were about 50 per cent. less than in any other single case that could be quoted. The promise was made that an inquiry would be held and I want, to ask the Postmaster-General whether he can tell us whether that inquiry has been made, what was the result, and, if these wages were as low as was stated, whether the remedy has been applied and the proper wages have now been paid.

12.39 a.m.

Mr. SEXTON

I want to ask a question about A.4. I am ashamed to be a shareholder in this company when I consider the remuneration paid to sub-postmasters and auxiliary postmen.

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

That is a matter that the hon. Member must raise on the main Estimates. It does not arise on this occasion.

Mr. SEXTON

The question arises on the pay of these people under "Provincial Establishments."

The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN

No. The hon. Member is mistaken. The question of the standard rates of pay has already been decided for this year by the House. The hon. Member must raise it for next year on the new Estimates.

Mr. SEXTON

I want to know how much the withdrawal of abatements of pay is concerned with the sub-postmasters, and how much with the auxiliary postmen. If the Postmaster General would send somebody up to Teesdale he would get to know that the auxiliary postmen cannot do the work in the time they are given.

Major TRYON

As far as I know, the question raised regarding sub-postmasters is nowhere concerned with this Supplementary Estimate. We have lately granted them substantial increases which have been accepted as satisfactory.

Captain MARGESSON

rose in his place and claimed to move That the Question be now put."

Question put, "That the Question be now put."

The Committee divided: Ayes, 148; Noes, 66.

Division No. 69.]	AYES.	[12.40 a.m.
Alhery, l. J.	Grldley, Sir A. B.	Raikes, H. V. A. M.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'kn'hd)	Griffith, F. Kingsloy (M'ddl'sbro, W.)	Ramsay, Captain A. H. M.
Allen, Lt. -Col. sir W. J. (Armagh)	Grimston, R. V.	Ramsbotham, H.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)	Gritten, W. G. Howard	Rankin, R.
Askc, Sir R. W.	Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)	Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Alholl, Duchcss of	Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll, N. W.)	Rayner, Major R. H.
Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet)	Hannah, I. C.	Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.	Hannon, Sir P. J. H.	Rlckards, G. W. (Skipton)
Bernays, R. H.	Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.	Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Bossom, A. C.	Holmes, J. S.	Ropner, Colonel L.
Boulton, W. W.	Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.	Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry)
Bower, Comdr. R. T.	Horsbrugh, Florence	Rowlands, G.
Bracken, B.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)	Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Briscoe, Capt. R. G.	Hulbert, N. J.	Salt, E. W.
Bull, B. B.	Insklp, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.	Samuel, M. R. A. (Putney)
Burghiey, Lord	Keeling, E. H.	Sandys, E. D.
Burgin, Dr. E. L.	Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)	Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Cartland, J. R. H.	Kerr, I. Graham (Scottish Univs.)	Smith, L. W. (Hallam)
Channon, H.	Latham, Sir P.	Somerset, T.
Chapman, A, (Ruthorglen)	Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)	Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Colvillo, Lt.-Col. O. J.	Lcckie, J. A.	Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Llewellin, Lieut.-Col. J. J.	Spens, W. P.
Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.	Lloyd, G. W.	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fyide)
Cranborne, Viscount	Loftus, P. C.	Storey, S.
Crltchioy, A.	Mabane, W. (Hudderafield)	Stourton, Hon. J. J.
Crooke, J. S.	MacAndrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.	Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Cross, R. H.	M'Connell, Sir J	Strickland, Captain W. F.
Crowder, J. F. E.	McKle, J. H.	Sutclifle, H.
Culverwell, C. T.	Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J.	Tate, Mavis C.
Daviet, Major G. F. (Yeovil)	Magnay, T.	Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (padd., S.)
De Chair, S. S.	Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.	Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)
Donner, P. W.	Maxwell, S. A.	Titchfield, Marquess of
Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.	Mellor, Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)	Tree, A. R. L. F.
Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side	Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)	Tryon, Ma|or Rt. Hon. G. C.
Dugdalo, Major T. L.	Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)	Turton, R. H.
Duggan, H. J.	Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.	Wakefield, W. W.
Duncan, J, A. L.	Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Unlv's.)	Wallace, Captain Euan
Dunne, P. R. R.	Morrison, W. S. (Cirencester)	Ward, Lieut. -col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Eastwood, J. F.	Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.	Ward, Irene (Wallsend)
Eckersley, P. T.	Nicolson, Hon. H. G.	Waterhouse, Captain C.
Elliot, Rt. Hon. W. E.	Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.	Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Errington, E.	Orr-Ewlng, I. L.	Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Erskine Hill, A. G.	Palmer, G. E. H.	Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)	Peake, O.	Windsor-Clive, Lieut. -Coionel G.
Everard, W. L,	Penny, Sir G.	Wise, A. R.
Fleming, E. L,	Peters, Dr. S. J.	Womersley, Sir W. J.
Fremantie, Sir F. E.	PetterIck, M.	Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Fyfe, D. P. M.	Plugge, L. F.
Gluckstein, L. H.	Ponsonby, Col. C. E.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)	Porrltt, R. W.	Sir James Blindell and Mr. James
		Stuart.

NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett)	Glbbins, J.	Ritson, J.
Adamson, W. M.	Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A.	Robinson, W. A. (St. Helens)
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)	Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)	Rowson, G.
Anderson, F. (Whltehaven)	Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)	Seely, Sir H. M.
Banfield, J. W.	Henderson, A. (Kingswlnford)	Sexton, T. M.
Bevan, A.	Henderson, T. (Tradeston)	Shinwell, E.
Broad, F. A.	Holland, A.	Silverman, S. S.
Brown, C. (Mansfield)	Hollins, A.	Simpson, F. B.
Burghley, Lord	Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)	Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Compton, J.	Jones, A. C. (Shipley)	Smith, E. (Stoke)
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford	Kelly, W. T.	Smith, T. (Normanton)
Dagger, G.	Kirby, B. V.	Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Dalton, H.	Lawson, J. J.	Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)	Lee, F.	Tayior, R. J. (Morpeth)
Davles, D. L. (Pontyprldd)	Logan, D. G.	Tinker, J. J.
Davles, 8. O. (Merthyr)	Lunn, W.	Watklns, F. C.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)	Malnwaring, W. H,	Westwood, J.
Ede, J. C.	Marklew, E.	Wilkinson, Ellen
Edwards, Sir C. (Bedwellty)	Mathers, G.	Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Fletcher. Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.	Mliner. Major J.	Williams, T. (Don Vailey)
Foot, D. M.	Paling, W.	Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Frankel, D.	Potts, J.
G arm- Jones, G. M.	Pritt, D. N.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
		Mr Whiteley and Mr. John.

Question put accordingly, That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £2,150,000, be granted for the said Service.

Division No. 70.]	AYES.	[12.50 a.m.
Albery, I. J.	Griffith, F. Kingsley (M'ddl'sbro, W.)	Ramsay, Capain A. H. M.
Allen, Lt.-Col. J. Sandeman (B'ku'hd)	Grimston, R. V.	Ramsbotham, H.
Allen, Lt.-Col. Sir W. J. (Armagh)	Gritten, W. G. Howard	Rankin, R.
Anderson, Sir A. Garrett (C. of Ldn.)	Guest, Hon. I. (Brecon and Radnor)	Rathbone, J. R. (Bodmin)
Aske, Sir R. W.	Guest, Maj. Hon. O.(C'mb'rw'll, N. W.)	Rayner, Major R. H.
Atholl, Duchess of	Hannah, I. C.	Reed, A. C. (Exeter)
Balfour, Capt. H. H.(Isle of Thanet)	Hannon, Sir P. J. H.	Rickards, G. W (Skipton)
Beauchamp, Sir B. C.	Hellgers, Captain F. F. A.	Robinson, J. R. (Blackpool)
Bernays, R. H.	Holmes, J. S.	Ropner, Colonel L.
Bossom, A. C.	Hope, Captain Hon. A. O. J.	Ross, Major Sir R. D. (L'derry)
Boulton, W. W.	Horsbrugh, Florence	Rowlands, G
Bower, Comdr. R. T.	Hudson, Capt. A. U. M. (Hack., N.)	Russell, S. H. M. (Darwen)
Bracken, B.	Hulbert, N. J.	Salt, E. W.
Briscoe, Capt. R. G.	Inskip, Rt. Hon. Sir T. W. H.	Samuel, M.R. A. (Putney)
Bull, B. B.	Keeling, E. H.	Sandys, E. D.
Burghley, Lord	Kerr, Colonel C. I. (Montrose)	Shaw, Captain W. T. (Forfar)
Burgin, Dr. E. L.	Kern, J. Graham (Scottish Univs.)	Smith, L. W. (Hallam)
Cartland, J. R. H.	Latham, Sir P.	Somerset, T.
Channon, H.	Law, R. K. (Hull, S.W.)	Somervell, Sir D. B. (Crewe)
Chapman, A. (Rutherglen)	Leckie, J. A.	Southby, Comdr. A. R. J.
Colville, Lt.-Col. D. J,	Lieweilln, Lieut. -Col. J. J.	Spens, W. P.
Courtauld, Major J. S.	Lloyd, G. W.	Stanley, Rt. Hon. Lord (Fylde)
Courthope, Col. Sir G. L.	Loftus, P. C.	Storey, S.
Cranborne, Viscount	Mabane, W. (Hudderstield)	Stourton, Hon. J. J.
Critchley. A.	Mac Andrew, Lt.-Col. Sir C. G.	Strauss, H. G. (Norwich)
Crooke, J. S,	M'Connell, Sir J.	Strickland, Captain W. F.
Cross, R. H.	McKie, J. H.	Sutcliffe, H.
Crowder, J. F. E.	Macnamara, Capt. J. R. J,	Tate, Mavis C.
Culverwell, C. T.	Magnay, T.	Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (Padd., S.)
Davies, Major G. F. (Yeovil)	Margesson, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. D. R.	Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)
De Chair, S. S.	Maxwell, S. A.	Titchfield, Marquess of
Donner, P. W.	Mayhew, Lt.-Col. J.	Tree, A. R L. F.
Dorman-Smith, Major R. H.	Mellor. Sir J. S. P. (Tamworth)	Tryon, Major Rt. Hon. G. C.
Duckworth, W. R. (Moss Side)	Mills, Major J. D. (New Forest)	Turton, R. H.
Dugdale, Major T. L.	Mitchell, H. (Brentford and Chiswick)	Wakefield, W. W.
Duggan, H. J.	Moore-Brabazon, Lt.-Col. J. T. C.	Wallace, Captain Euan
Duncan, J. A. L,	Morrison, G. A. (Scottish Univ's.)	Ward, Lieut. -col. Sir A. L. (Hull)
Dunne, P. R. R.	Morrison. W. S. (Cirencest.'r)	Ward, Irene (Wallsend)
Eastwood, S. F.	Muirhead, Lt.-Col. A. J.	Waterhouse, Captain C.
Eckcrsley, P. T.	Nicolson, Hon. H. G.	Wickham, Lt.-Col. E. T. R.
Elliot. Rt. Hon. W. E.	Ormsby-Gore, Rt. Hon. W. G.	Williams, H. G. (Croydon, S.)
Errington, E.	Orr-Ewing, I. L.	Wilson, Lt.-Col. Sir A. T. (Hitchin)
Erskine Hill, A. G.	Palmer, G. E. H.	Windsor-Clive. Lieut. -Colonel G.
Evans, Capt. A. (Cardiff, S.)	Peake, O.	Wise, A. R.
Everard. W. L.	Penny, Sir G.	Womersley, Sir W. J.
Fleming, E. L.	Peters, Dr. S. J.	Young, A. S. L. (Partick)
Fremantle. Sir F. E.	Petherick, M.
Fyfe, D. P. M.	Plugge, L. F.	TELLERS FOR THE AYES—
Gluckstein, L. H.	Ponsonby, Col. C. E.	Sir James Blindell and Mr. James
Greene, W. P. C. (Worcester)	Porritt, R. W.	Stuart.
Gridley, Sir A. B.	Raikes, H. V. A. M.

NOES.
Adams, D. (Consett)	Greenwood, Rt. Hon, A.	Rowson, G.
Adamson, W. M.	Hall, G. H. (Aberdare)	Seely, Sir H. M.
Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V. (H'lsbr.)	Hall, J. H. (Whitechapel)	Sexton, T. M.
Anderson, F. (Whitchaven)	Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)	Shinwell, E.
Banfield, J. W.	Henderson, T. (Tradeston)	Silverman, S. S.
Bevan, A.	Holland, A.	Simpson, F. B.
Broad, F. A.	Holllns, A.	Smith, Ben (Rotherhithe)
Brown, C. (Mansfield)	Jenkins, A. (Pontypool)	Smith, E. (Stoke)
Compton, J.	Jones, A. C. (Shipley)	Smith. T. (Normanton)
Cripps, Hon. Sir Stafford	Kelly, W. T.	Stewart, W. J. (H'ght'n-le-Sp'ng)
Daggar, G.	Kirby, B. V.	Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Dalton, H.	Lawson, J. J.	Taylor, R J. (Morpeth)
Davidson, J. J. (Maryhill)	Lee, F.	Tinker, J. J.
Davies, D. L. (Pontypridd)	Logan, D. G.	Watkins, F. C.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)	Lunn, W.	Westwood. J.
Dunn, E. (Rother Valley)	Mainwarlng, W. H.	Whiteley, W.
Ede, J. C.	Marklew, E.	Wilkinson Ellen
Edwards, Sin C. (Bedwellty)	Milner, Major J.	Williams, E. J. (Ogmore)
Fletcher, Lt.-Comdr. R. T. H.	Paling, W.	Williams. T. (Don Valley)
Foot, D. M.	Potts, J.	Windsor, W. (Hull, C.)
Frankel, D.	Pritt, D. N.
Garro-Jones, G. M.	Ritson, J.	TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—
Gibbins, J.	Robinson. W. A. (St. Heiens)	Mr. John and Mr. Mathers.

The Committee divided: Ayes, 148; Noe, 66.