§
Montion made, and Question proposed,
That the Clause stand part of the Bill.
§ 12.40 p.m.
§ Mr. TINKERI should like to ask the Attorney-General a question or two on this Clause. It says:
accordingly the member of the Royal Family then next in succession to the Throne shall succeed thereto and to all the rights, privileges, and dignities thereunto belonging.At a time like this when we get an opportunity of discussing the position of the Royal Family I think it is well to make clear to the country what the position is. The fault in the past has been 2223 that there has been too much secrecy as to what is meant by the term. My intention to-day is to try and get before the country exactly the position which the Royal Family occupy, and I want the Attorney-General to tell us as clearly as he can what are the rights of the Royal Family, and, in the second place, and perhaps the most important, what they carry in the way of cash value. What amount of money does the Royal Family get? If you go to the country and speak about the position of the Royal Family questions are sometimes asked as to the amount of money paid, and I say that there are but few hon. Members who can say accurately what they get. The result is that tremendous sums of money are mentioned, sometimes much above what is the actual amount. I want to get these matters put clearly before the House of Commons so that the country will know. The country is behind the Royal Family, and it will be all the better if the country knows what exactly are the responsibilities in the matter.
§ The CHAIRMANBefore those questions are answered I must call hon. Members' attention to the limitations as to what questions can be answered, because I am afraid that to reply to some of them will scarcely be in order. This Bill does not deal with the rights of the Royal Family generally and, moreover, any question as to money, as the hon. Member knows, is dealt with by Parliament under other machinery.
§ Mr. G. HARDIEI do not want to deal with the Royal Family now but with what is in the Schedule. I want to know something in relation to the conditions which will obtain when the Bill has been passed. The King has gone. What financial provisions are being made? Have any arrangements been made as to what he is to be paid after leaving the job? I should also like to know whether he carries with him the income of any estates which are said to be his?
§ The CHAIRMANAny question affecting His Majesty's own private possessions is not in order.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESMy hon. Friend asks what burden will fall on the State, if any, on the retirement of the present King.
§ The CHAIRMANI think we had better see how far that matter can be debated if and when any reply to the question comes under consideration.
§ Mr. THORNEI understand that although we cannot discuss this matter on this Bill, later on a new Civil List will come out and it can be raised then.
§ Mr. HARDIEIn the meantime, is any arrangement to be made before the Civil List comes out Does the gentleman who is going away continue to draw money out of Government funds? I quite understand about private estates, but I want to know whether he is drawing anything now?
§ 12.46 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir Donald Somervell)The questions raised by the hon. Member for Leigh (Mr. Tinker) and the hon. Member for Spring-burn (Mr. Hardie) to some extent overlap, and I think without going beyond your ruling, I can make a short statement which will deal with some of the points that have been raised. The hon. Member for Leigh was primarily interested in what cannot be discussed to-day—the amount of the provision from various sources for the King. The sources from which that provision come are, of course, the Civil List and the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall and the Duchy of Lancaster. When this Bill becomes an Act, all those provisions which are at present going to His present Majesty will go to his successor, the new King; and, so far as this Bill is concerned, His Majesty will cease to draw any of the revenues which the Crown derives from those sources. What action this House may take subsequently is entirely outside to-day's discussion.
§ Mr. BUCHANANWould the hon. and learned Gentleman explain this point? Will the King retain all the other titles which go with kingship?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALAll the titles to which the hon. Member refers, all the titles which His Majesty now has as His Majesty, cease, and go to his successor. The Committee will appreciate that the answer I am now making is simply an amplification of the broad statement made by the Prime Minister when he introduced this Bill, that the effect of the Bill is to produce exactly 2225 the same results in all these matters as though the previous reign had ended in the ordinary course.
§ 12.48 p.m.
§ Mr. LEES-SMITHI understood the hon. and learned Gentleman to say that all the titles which appertain to His Majesty as King will now be abandoned, but I think it is the case that he has a number of titles which have been granted to him almost in an individual capacity. For example, he is colonel of a number of regiments, and—I am not sure, but it has been suggested—he has some lower dignities. My question, summed up, is whether the Attorney-General can tell us what exactly will he the designation of His Majesty after this Bill has passed?
§ 12.49 p.m.
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALSo far as titles other than Royal titles are concerned, when conferred on an heir before he becomes King, when he becomes King they all, as the lawyers have it, merge in his position as King and cease to exist, so that the only question, so far as titles are concerned, which has to be considered under this Bill is the titles which His Majesty has in virtue of being King. All other titles merge into kingship and cease to exist. Other possible positions may well be outside the scope of what I may call the general statutory provisions which we are making to-day. The phrase, "rights, privileges and dignities" is the ordinary phrase covering the matters with which I think it is right we should concern ourselves upon this occasion. There may be possible positions which will have to be considered outside the provisions of this Bill, and which, in ordinary course, he will cease to hold.
§ Mr. LEES-SMITHI do not wish to press the hon. and learned Gentleman, but I put a question which he has not answered. What will be the designation of His Majesty after this Bill has passed
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALI think the Committee appreciates that that must be a matter with which the new King will deal.
§ 12.51 p.m.
§ Mr. MORGAN JONESDo we take it that the Government are taking into consideration the question of other titles, 2226 such as colonelcies of regiments, and so on?
§ The CHAIRMANQuestions of rank in the Army and other Forces would be out of Order on this Bill.
§ Mr. THORNEI would like to put to the Attorney-General a question which I think is a constitutional one and one which was discussed last night. Is a King who has voluntarily abdicated compelled to leave this country?
§ The ATTORNEY-GENERALNo, Sir.
§ Clause 2 (Short Title) ordered to stand part of the Bill.