CLAUSE 124.—(Power of Federal Legislature to confer powers, etc., on Provinces and States in certain cases.) (Hansard, 27 May 1935)

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL
1 beg to move, in page 77, line 28, at the end, to insert: to be designated for the purpose by the Ruler. This Clause deals with the powers of the Federal Legislature to confer powers both on the Provinces and on the States in certain cases, and the words of the first Amendment come in at the end of. Sub-section (3), which reads as follows: An Act of the Federal Legislature which extends to a Federated State may confer powers and impose duties upon the State or officers and authorities thereof. The Amendment proposes to insert at the end: to be designated for the purpose by the Ruler. This matter was, I think, referred to in the White Paper. The States thought that it ought not to be open to the Federal Legislature to confer powers upon specified State officials and that if any official had to exercise powers, he should be designated by the Ruler. That point my right hon. Friend thought to be a reasonable and proper one, and I suggest to the House that his decision in the matter was right.

§ The SOLICITOR-GENERAL
I beg to move, in page 77, line 35, to leave out from the second "of, "to the end of the Clause, and to insert: any extra costs of administration incurred by the Province or State in connection with the exercise of those powers and duties. This Amendment deals with Sub-section (4) of the Clause. Perhaps I might read the relevant words to the Committee, in The Sub-section provides that there shall be paid such sum as may be agreed, or, in default of agreement, as may ho determined by an arbitrator appointed by the Chief Justice of India, in respect of "— and then the Clause, as originally drafted, read: the cost of any additional staff thereby rendered necessary in the Province or State. 875 The Amendment proposed leaves out those words and substitutes others. This point also was raised by the States. They said that the Clause as drafted did not provide sufficiently accurately for payments that ought to be made in virtue of arrangements that might be made under the Sub-section. The original words simply referred to expenses of additional staff, but there might be a question of expenses other than for additional staff. Therefore, we omit those words and put in more general words.

Mr. ATT'LEE
This is a very important Amendment, but I do not know how far it carries us. In the original scheme, it was proposed to give the Centre power over any legislation which would put any cost upon the Provinces, or for that matter on the States. Obviously, that would frustrate social legislation from the Centre. Provinces or States might pass legislation, but they could not see it carried out, and there was a very great danger that it would not be carried out. We have now got beyond that point. I take it that we have met the point, which was an obvious one, that if the Federal Legislature should pass a general law and impose duties and expenses on the Federal units, the latter should be reimbursed by the Centre. Up to this point, and until the Amendment was moved, that proposal was limited merely to the cost of extra salaries and so on, but "extra cost of administration" seems a fairly wide phrase. I do not know whether the Government spokesman will tell us exactly what that will cover. I do not know whether it would, for instance, cover the passing of the kind of general social legislation which may obviously have to be carried out in the Provinces and for which staff would be needed, or whether it merely applies to a case in which the Province or State is an agent of the Centre for the carrying out of certain duties. Perhaps that might be made clear.

§ Mr. BUTLER
I think I can answer quite simply the point put by the hon. Member for Limehouse (Mr. Attlee). This matter refers to the latter case, of delegated powers of the Federation, and the Amendment is no more than a draft- 876 ing Amendment. It does not raise those social questions to which the hon. Member referred. In certain cases the Federation would delegate its powers. It was thought that the original words as to staff were not broad enough to cover those cases, and that they would not cover the extra cost of administration which the Federation had delegated to the State. It was to meet that point rather more accurately and to meet all such contingencies that we have slightly altered the drafting.

§ Mr. ATTLEE
As to the question of duties imposed, when a Bill is passed imposing a duty upon a Province to provide certain facilities, say for old age pensions, miners' baths or welfare, it seems that the words in the Bill would authorise the imposing of those duties and the paying from the Centre of money to the Provinces for those reforms.

§ Mr. BUTLER
The matters to which my hon. Friend refers will be found within the Concurrent List. To meet the case in which the Federal Legislature imposes duties upon a Province, we only slightly alter the drafting of the words originally in the Bill so as to include the extra expense of administrative duties in. connection with subjects in the Federal List. This provision is therefore strictly limited to subjects in the Federal List. The scope of the amended Sub-section is therefore not very much greater than the original Sub-section.

§ Sir H. CROFT
Before the hon. Members sits down, can he give us some example of what this will mean? There must be some reason for putting in the new words.

§ Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER (Sir Dennis Herbert)
I do not know whether any other hon. Member wishes to raise a point, but I would remind the House that the Under-Secretary of State has already spoken twice and that this is the Report stage.

§ Sir H. CROFT
That was why I was asking him before he resumed his seat to give a single instance of what is meant by the Amendment.

§ Mr. BUTLER
With the permission of the House, I would suggest the enforcement of the Arms Act or some question 877 arising out of the enforcement of Customs Acts.