HC Deb 01 March 1935 vol 298 cc1534-43

Motion made, and Question proposed: That a Supplementary sum, not exceeding £250,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1935, to meet the additional charges to Army Votes consequent upon the restoration of half the emergency reductions in the remuneration of Ministers and Civil Servants (including the arrangements for consolidating the salaries of Civil Servants), and in the pay, half-pay, pensions, &c., of officers and other ranks of the Army, the despatch of British troops to the Saar, additional purchases of blankets, the completion of certain land purchases, and an ex gratia grant to the Government of Kenya, which were not provided for in the Estimates of the year.

3.15 p.m.

The FINANCIAL SECRETARY to the WAR OFFICE (Mr. Douglas Hacking)

In asking the Committee for the sum of £250,000 in addition to that granted in the main Estimate of 1934, I hope I shall not have much difficulty in convincing hon. Members of the necessity far this extra payment. May I say at once that strict economy alone prevents this request from being a, very much larger one? When I tell the Committee that the initial restoration of economy cuts in salaries, pay and pensions alone requires £439,000, it will be realised immediately how economical we must have been in other directions when we only ask to-day for a total sum of £250,000. Of the items which have been read out from the Chair, there are only two that I need mention in any detail. The first is the sum involved in the despatch of troops to the Saar, and the second is the payment of £50,000 to the Government of Kenya.

With regard to the despatch of troops to the Saar, I need not at this stage enter into the reasons why the British contingent was despatched to the Saar, for they are matters of public knowledge, as is also the splendid manner in which the difficult and unusual duties of our troops were carried out, their behaviour being magnificent. The Saar Committee of the League of Nations adopted the principle that the cost of the various national contingents should be recovered from the Saar Plebiscite Commission, which possessed a fund contributed to on an equal basis by the French and German Governments. It was agreed that the cost should be the extra cost only, by which I mean the cost over and above the normal provisions made in the defence Budgets of the participating Powers. The British contingent was limited to 1,500 men. It will be seen from the Supplementary Estimate that the extra cash expenditure is £28,000. We hope to recover from the Plebiscite Commission a sum of £30,000. The balance of 2,000 represents non-cash expenditure, such as depreciation on mechanical vehicles and other charges of that kind.

I think I ought to mention, because it has a bearing on this Supplementary Estimate, the generosity of the French Government, who paid the cost of transporting our contingent across Northern France, both on its way to the Saar territory and also on its return journey after the completion of its task. In addition to that, all customs, dues and other formalities were remitted by the French Government, and the British troops were given generous hospitality during each journey across France, not only by the representatives of the French Government but also by the people of France themselves. For this generous treatment of our troops His Majesty's Government, and especially my noble Friend the Secretary of State for War, desire to express real appreciation.

The only other item that I need mention is the sum of £50,000 which represents an ex gratiá payment to the Government of Kenya. The only reason why this item appears on the Army Estimates, which hon. Members might think curious, is because an approximately equivalent amount constitutes the unclaimed balances of pay due to the native carriers of the various military and labour corps enrolled for service in the East Africa campaign during the War. Every practicable step has been taken to trace these natives to whom the money was due, and, in fact, many settlements have actually been effected. But, after payment has been made in all authenticated cases, there still remains an unclaimed balance of £49,000. It has been decided that a round sum of £50,000 should be granted to the Governor of Kenya to help in carrying out the recommendations of the Kenya Land Commission, which involve considerable expenditure on behalf of various contributions for the purchase of land, the payment of compensaiton and other matters. If any details are required in connection with this sum of money the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who is responsible for this, will answer any questions that may be put to him. I think that concludes any necessary explanation in respect of this Supplementary Estimate that I need give at present. If there be anything that I have not made clear, or if any further explanation be required, I shall be happy in so far as I may be able to give any additional particulars.

3.22 p.m.

Mr. LANSBURY

Usually on an Army Estimate I expect, if I were free, I should stand up to oppose it anyhow, but on this occasion I wish to say a few words on the question of the Saar Force and to join with the hon. Gentleman in thanks to all those in France and Germany who gave such a generous welcome and hospitality to the British soldiers on their way out, while they were in the Saar and on their way home. I have had the opportunity of hearing from some of them, who are loud in their praises and gratitude to all with whom they came in contact both on their journey and during the carrying out of their very difficult duties. If ever soldiers are used, it seems to me that this is a very splendid example of how a mixed force could be used in an intelligible way to preserve law, order and peace. It is often said how impossible it is to get a mixed force under one control and although each division, I suppose, was under its own commanders, the force as a whole must have acted in unison and on a concerted plan. It is a fine example of international action for the preservation of peace, and it is one which, I think, gives point to those who desire an international police force generally. As one who is bitterly opposed 'to armed forces generally, I think the conduct of those who had charge of the men, and of the men themselves, was simply splendid. Very few people when they went out expected that they would be able to carry out this very difficult duty in the magnificent way that they did. I am speaking on behalf of my friends who are not here, but, if they were here, they would unanimously join in what the Minister said in expressing our gratitude both to our friends in France and Germany and also certainly to the men and officers concerned.

3.25 p.m.

Sir R. HAMILTON

May I equally on behalf of my hon. and right hon. Friends who are not here endorse what the right hon. Gentleman has said about the admirable conduct of our troops of the Saar Force, and the full and whole-hearted way in which the difficult work they had to do was carried out from start to finish. The point to which I desire particularly to call attention in these Estimates is that of the grant of £50,000 to Kenya, which, as the right hon. Gentleman who introduced the Estimate said, might not be expected to be found in the Army Vote, but for the peculiar circumstances attaching to it. It is a grant from the Army Vote to the Colonial Office Vote for a very special service. The Under-Secretary said in a very few quiet words that it was decided that this grant should be made. To anyone who has had no inkling of this, it is a very interesting statement, and I want to take this opportunity of heartily congratulating the Secretary of State for the Colonies in having been successful in securing this money as the result of a somewhat strenuous fight. I am sorry that the money was not handed over a long time ago. It is rather a disgrace to this country that money which was ascertained to be due as an unpaid balance to native carriers who served us in the War should have been retained for all these years. The War was over in 1920, and it is not until 1935, that this money is being handed over. However, that is past history now, and we have got the money. The point to which I wish to direct attention is the way in which it is proposed that the money should be expended. The Morris Carter Report, in that portion which deals with the financial aspect of their recommendations, says, in paragraph 2041, that their recommendations, if carried into effect, will involve considerable expenditure under a number of heads"— such as the purchase of alienated land, compensation to natives in respect of their rights under Section 86 of the Crown Lands Ordinance, and a number of other similar directions, which are set out in detail. As regards the expenditure which is to be incurred, they point out, in paragraph 2044, that, without attaching blame to the Government for what has been done with regard to the alienation of lands, undoubtedly the responsibility rests upon the Imperial Government for putting matters right. Their suggestion is that they trust that their view of the matter will be given full weight and that the Imperial Government will insist in the provision of the funds necessary to implement these particular recommendations. Then they go on, in paragraph 2047, to another matter of the necessity that exists for improving the native reserves. They say: We have throughout our Report laid stress on the necessity for the proper utilisation of land in the native reserves, and have made recommendations with regard to the need of the improvement of water supplies, fencing, combating of soil erosion, and other such matters. And we consider that much of the early expenditure could be properly met by the allocation to these purposes of the sum of nearly £50,000 which is owing by the Imperial Exchequer in respect of unclaimed balances of pay due to native carriers of the Military Labour Corps. They recommend that this particular sum of £50,000—having failed to trace the relatives of those who died and to whom it belongs—should be expended in improving the native reserves in the way that I have read out. To show how their view is shared by all parties in Kenya, they say in paragraphs 2062–3: The tribes of Kenya have suffered a grievous loss of men, and it would be but bare justice that they should receive the money these men have earned in obedience to their chiefs. The subject is one on which all sections of the community in Kenya are agreed, whether they be the Government, settlers, missionaries, officials, Indians or natives, who all alike feel that a grave injustice would be done if this claim were not fully met. When the report was published, a White Paper was issued by the Government, the last sentence of which I will quote: His Majesty's Government are anxious to remove any sense of grievance at a time when they are endeavouring to resolve a number of problems which have been a cause of vexation in connection with the land and the natives of the Colony. Accordingly, they have decided to ask Parliament to make an ex-gratia grant of £50,000 to the Government of Kenya to be devoted to carrying out the recommendations of the Commission. The wording of the White Paper gives rise to a little apprehension as to what was in the Secretary of State's mind, when he said: "the recommendations of the Commission." The Commission made two recommendations, one, that the major cost should be met out of the Imperial Treasury, and the other that the improvement of the native reserves should be met by an application of this £50,000. In order to clear up this point, a question was put by the hon. Member for Rothwell (Mr. Lunn), and the reply which was given by the Secretary of State for the Colonies, from which I quote the last sentences was as follows: The total cost of carrying out the Commission's recommendation is impossible to estimate at present, but it will undoubtedly be in excess of £50,000. There can there fore, be no surplus available for any purpose. There, again, the matter has been left in considerable doubt, and I have raised the question this afternoon in order to give the Secretary of State an opportunity of clearing up what I feel is a misapprehension, whether this £50,000, representing the balance due to the carriers who died in our service is to be applied in paying for previous mistakes of our Government in Kenya and for the expenses of the Commission itself, or whether it is to be applied, as the Commission recommended, for the improvement of the native reserves.

3.34 p.m.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I am obliged to the hon. Member for raising this matter. I do not want to go over again the old secular controversies that have raged in regard to it. I think we May all be reasonably satisfied that the contentions, strongly held, have been compromised by a willingness that we should make this gift of £50,000 towards the cost of implementing the recommendations of the Commission. As my hon. Friend has truly said, for a very long time, certainly for many years, civil war has raged in the Departments over this matter, and the Colonial Office have always: been beaten. On this occasion I am not claiming a victory for myself, the fact is that the whole Government felt that a new situation had arisen.

The commission made recommendations which involved considerable expenditure in Kenya in making these great additions to the reserves and in compensation to the natives. It, was a result for which we were all responsible. The government of Kenya acted with the approval of the government here and, therefore, it was felt that we ought to make some contribution towards this great social endeavour. We now ask that £50,000 should be spent in carrying out the recommendations of the commission, and I will tell the hon. Member exactly how it is proposed to spend the money. I have received from the Governor definite proposals as to how he proposes to spend this £50,000. Between £17,000 and £18,000 will be spent actually on land purchase for additions to the reserve. That carries out the recommendations of the commission as regards particular additions. Then a sum of £14,000 will be spent in compensations in a number of different cases, also entirely in accordance with the recommendations of the commission; where a particular tribe or persons settled in an area have acquired a claim to compensation. There is a special item of compensation a little different in character, in connection with land which the commission held was wrongly alienated in 1912. There is also further compensation to be paid in connection with other land.

The government are also asking that they should be allowed to spend £4,000 or £5,000 in the payment of surveyors. The commission thought that it probably would not be necessary to have surveyors for the delimitation of the frontiers and that the district officers might be able to do the work. I think it will be agreed that when you are making boundaries once and for all it is important to get them accurate, and that it is not enough to have a hard pressed district officer going round in a general sort of way marking the boundary. The Governor has considered this very carefully with his advisers and has decided that it is necessary to employ experienced surveyors to do the detail work, and I have authorised that this expenditure should be included. Then there is the cost of the commission itself, which gave its services very generously and very fully. It incurred a, large expenditure in the many months during which it sat. It came to £7,000 altogether. It is proposed that this should be discharged. The whole amounts up to £48,000 leaving a couple of thousand pounds over for other purposes. The £50,000 will not, of course, cover the cost of everything that has to be done but it is a material contribution. It covers much of the capital cost which will be incurred, and I hope it will be taken in Kenya and accepted here as a reasonable contribution by this House towards an endeavour which we all equally want to see carried through.

3.40 p.m.

Sir R. HAMILTON

While thanking the right hon. Gentleman for the explanation he has given—and I shall be very glad to have the details—I should like at once to say that I rather take objection to the cost of the Commission being placed on this Fund, which is a trust fund on behalf of certain persons. The Commission is a matter for the Government, and I do not think the cost could very well be placed on the fund without giving rise to serious feeling. As regards the other matters, I should like to look at them more in detail, but it does occur to me that when the Government have incurred costs for putting right mistakes which have been made, it is, to my mind at least, hardly fair that the cost should be put upon a fund which has been recovered definitely for the benefit of certain persons.

3.42 p.m.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

I do not think that I am entitled to say, speaking for the whole Government, that this can be treated as a sum which has been re covered for the benefit of certain persons. It has always been the the contention of the Colonial Office that these people have a claim, or, at any rate, there was a claim. My hon. Friend knows, from the time when we were associated together, that that claim was most strenuously resisted. I present it is as a voluntary offer made, at the instance of the Government, by this House to contribute towards the cost of the proposals in the Land Commission Report, and that is the only way I am authorised, speaking for the whole Government, to present it. Therefore, it is rather a different position from that which my hon. Friend seeks to take up. With regard to the cost of the Commission, if he looks at the Report, he will see that that is one of the items included in Appendix 13. I do not think it matters very much how precisely the Government apportion this £50,000 grant. It is the policy of the Government of Kenya, as of the Government here, to carry out these recommendations, but that would cost more than £50,000. There is going to be an annual cost in connection with it. There will probably be developments in respect of the problem of overstocking. It is the considered policy of His Majesty's Government that this recommendation should be carried out. I give this undertaking to the Committee that the fact that we are contributing this £50,000 will not be used in Kenya to whittle down any of the recommendations in the Report.

3.44 p.m.

Mr. HARCOURT JOHNSTONE

This sum was granted by the Colonial Office for the benefit of the native population, and surely it should be treated as additional to what the Government are going to carry out in Kenya.

Sir P. CUNLIFFE-LISTER

The hon. Member has absolutely misconceived the form in which this is treated. I should never had got it on any other basis except the basis that the British Government should make a contribution for carrying out the recommendations of the Morris Carter Report. I do not want on this matter to fight the old civil war in which every Government has been engaged ever since 1921. To-day I am glad to say that the Government in Great Britain have agreed, without prejudice, to ask this House for £50,000 for carrying out the recommendations.

Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.