HC Deb 21 February 1935 vol 298 cc681-8

Considered in Committee under Standing Order No. 69.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

Motion made and Question proposed, That for the purposes of any Act of the present Session to make further and better provision for the prevention of overcrowding in Scotland, the re-development of areas in connection with the provision of housing accommodation, and the re-conditioning of buildings, to make provision for the establishment in Scotland of a housing advisory committee and of commissions for the management of local authorities' houses, to amend the enactments relating to the housing operations of public utility societies and other bodies, to provide for the consolidation of housing accounts and subsidies, and to amend the enactments relating to housing in Scotland, and for purpsoes connected with the matters aforesaid (hereinafter referred to as 'the said Act of the present Session'), it is expedient to authorise the payment out of moneys provided by Parliament—

A.—Of such expenses as may be incurred by the Department of Health for Scotland (hereinafter referred to as the Department')

  1. (1) in defraying the expenses of any Scottish Housing Advisory Committee appointed under the said Act of the present Session;
  2. (2) in making, during the five years next after the date on. which the Department recognises any central association or other body established for the purpose of promoting the formation and extension of housing associations and of giving them advice and assistance, grants in aid of the expenses of that association or body;
  3. (3) in making annual contributions towards expenses incurred by local authorities in providing, with the approval of the Department, housing accommodation required for the purpose of putting an end to overcrowding, or of providing for displacements occurring in carrying out re-development under the said Act of the present Session, being accommodation provided in houses the erection of which is begun on or after the first day of February, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, but so, however, that such a contribution shall be payable during a period of forty years only, and that the amount thereof shall be the sum of six pounds fifteen shillings in respect of each house, except that—
    4. 683
    1. (a) where it is necessary for a local authority, being the town council of a large burgh, to provide such accommodation on an extensive scale in one or more re-development areas, and the Department are satisfied that, by reason of the costliness of the provision so made, the total annual expenditure likely to be incurred by the local authority in providing such housing accommodation as aforesaid is substantially greater than the prescribed equivalent per house, the amount of the contribution in respect of a house in any such re-development area may be such larger sum than six pounds fifteen shillings, but not exceeding ten pounds fifteen shillings, as may be sanctioned by the Treasury; and
    2. (b) where the Department are satisfied that the total annual expenditure likely to be incurred by a local authority other than the town council of a large burgh in providing such housing accommodation as aforesaid is substantially greater than the prescribed equivalent per house, in consequence of the remoteness of the sites of any houses in which such accommodation is provided from centres of supply of building labour and material, and the impractibility of obtaining for such houses higher rents than are ordinarily payable by persons employed in agriculture or fishing, or by persons of a like economic condition, the amount of the contribution in respect of any such house may be such larger sum than six pounds fifteen shillings as may be sanctioned by the Treasury;
  4. (4) in making, towards expenses incurred by housing associations in the provision of such housing accommodation as aforesaid under arrangements made with local authorities under the said Act of the present Session, the like contributions as if the accommodation had been provided by a local authority;
  5. (5) in making in respect of works proposed to be executed by a local authority the like contributions as the Department might have made under the Housing (Rural Workers) Acts, 1926 and 1931, if the authority had made to another person in respect of the works the maximum grant permissible under those Acts.

B.—Of such additional sums as may become payable under section twenty-three of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, by reason of

  1. (1) the extension of the provisions of that section to expenses incurred by local authorities in providing, with the approval of the Department, accommodation required for providing for displacements, occurring in carrying out redevelopment under the said Act of the present Session, from houses unfit for human habitation and not capable at reasonable expense of being rendered so fit, and in maintaining accommodation so provided;
    2. 684
  2. (2) any provisions of the said Act of the present Session enabling local authorities to include, in an area declared under the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930,. to be a clearance area, any land belonging to them and applying the provisions of that Act to land surrounded by or adjoining a clearance area and belonging to local authorities;
  3. (3) the making of contributions under the said section twenty-three in respect of houses provided by housing associations under arrangements made under the said Act of the present Session;
  4. (4) any provision of the said Act of the present Session substituting for the provisions of section twenty-five of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930, provisions requiring the Department, after the first day of October in the year nineteen hundred and thirty-seven, and in each third succeeding year, to lay before the Commons House of Parliament a draft of an order providing in relation to contributions under the said section twenty-three either—
    1. (a) for the termination of the Department's obligation to make such contributions in the case of new houses which have not been rendered available until after such date as may be provided for by the said Act of the present Session; or
    2. (b) for the continuance thereof without alterations; or
    3. (c) for the alteration of the amount of the contributions in the case aforesaid or of the period for which they are to be payable, or of both.

C.—Of such additional sums as may become payable under section four of the Housing (Rural Workers) Act, 1926, by reason of any provisions of the said Act of the present Session enabling the Department to make under the said section contributions towards expenses incurred by local authorities in making grants in respect of applications for assistance received before the twenty-fourth day of June, nineteen hundred and thirty-eight;

D.—Of such additional sums as may become payable under section five of the Housing, Town Planning, &c. (Scotland) Act, 1919, or under sub-section (3) of section one of the Housing, &c., Act, 1923, by reason of any provisions of the said Act of the present Session providing that as from the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, the contributions for any financial year to be made by the Department under the said sections in respect of any scheme, other than a scheme for the provision of houses for persons in the employment of, or paid by, a local authority, shall—

  1. (1) in the case of contributions under the said section five, be the amount, if any, by which the balance of estimated expenditure over estimated income for that year in respect of the scheme exceeds an amount equal to the produce of a rate 685 of four-fifths of one penny in the pound for that year levied in the authority's district;
  2. (2) in the case of contributions under the said sub-section (3) be an amount equal to one-half of such balance as aforesaid, save in so far as may be otherwise determined by the Department with the approval of the Treasury.
For the purposes of this Resolution— the expression `large burgh' has the like meaning as in the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1929; the expression prescribed equivalent ' means the equivalent of ten pounds per annum for forty years or such other equivalent as may be substituted there for by virtue or in consequence of any order made by the Department in pursuance of any provisions of the said Act of the present Session for the review of contributions thereunder; the expression 'estimated' means (subject to the provisions of any agreement made before the sixteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and thirty-five)—
  1. (a) in relation to income, estimated upon the basis that income from rents is taken to be an amount equal to the aggregate annual rents of the houses provided or acquired by the local authority under the scheme as accepted at the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and thirty-five; and
  2. (b) in relation to expenditure, estimated upon the basis that expenditure in respect of supervision and management, repairs, unoccupied houses, and irrecoverable rents, is taken to be an amount equal to the aggregate of the two following sums—
    1. (i) a sum bearing the same proportion to income from rents (estimated as aforesaid) as normal charges in respect of those matters during the five years ending on the fifteenth day of May, nineteen hundred and thirty-five, as accepted, bore to gross estimated rent income during those five years, as accepted; and
    2. (ii) a sum equal to two per cent. of income from rents (estimated as aforesaid); the expression accepted ' means accepted by the Department for the purpose of the determination of the contribution payable by them in respect of the scheme;
the expression normal charges ' used in relation to repairs means as regards any year in which, in consequence of regulations made by the Department, no charge or a charge of less than fifteen per cent. of the gross estimated rent was made in respect of repairs, a sum equal to the said fifteen per cent."—(King's Recommendation signified).—[Sir G. Collins.]

11.45 p.m.

Mr. MACLEAN

The supporters of the Government have kept, us here to this hour, but I do not think it is too late for us to have a word from the Government on the question I raised in debate on the Bill as to the Housing Management Commissioners. We were told that it was solely within the discretion of a local authority whether it should hand over the management of its housing estates to one of these commissions, but this power is not so permissive. Clause 22 provides that: A housing management commission may, on the application of the local authority, be dissolved by order of the Department, and any such order may provide for the reverting in the local authority of the property vested in the commission and for any other matter consequential on the dissolution of the commission. That shows that if the Department does not see eye to eye with a local authority it can, in defiance of the unanimous wish of the local authority, continue the Housing Management Commission in the factoring of the property. The same observations apply to the housing associations under the Bill. I do not intend to divide the Committee on this question. One of the Government Whips smiles. If he wants a division he can have it. He and other English Members saved the Secretary of State for Scotland from defeat tonight, and probably English Members may do so again. My point is that I was told in debate that the power to transfer house factoring to these Commissions was purely permissive, but since consulting the Bill I have formed the opinion that though it may be permissive to set them up the Department can refuse the request of a local authority to dissolve them.

11.49 p.m.

Sir ROBERT HAMILTON

The Under-Secretary had to answer a great many questions during the debate on the Bill and he no doubt overlooked this one, which was brought to the notice of the Scottish Office. Does the Financial Resolution cover the granting of the extra financial assistance which the Government had in mind for the Highlands and Islands to slum clearance schemes under the Act of 1930? The point was raised by the right hon. Member for Caithness (Sir A. Sinclair) and we should like to know whether, apart from the expressed intention of the Government, the power to carry out the idea is actually contained in the Resolution.

11.50 p.m.

Mr. SKELTON

I quite appreciate the remarks made by the hon. Member for Govan (Mr. Maclean). In my attempt to cover all the ground in my reply, I was perhaps on that point too unqualified. I would have been more correct if I had said that the management committee is absolutely permissive so far as its start is concerned, and that, so far as its coming to an end is concerned, the procedure is in the terms referred to by the hon. Gentleman. I am very much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for having given me the opportunity to correct what was an error in my speech. With regard to the point raised by the hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Sir R. Hamilton), the special subsidy related to slum clearance. I do not think it was ever referred to. So far as the slum clearance subsidy is concerned, namely, the unit grant per person re-housed, there has never been any complaint nor, I think, any ground for complaint, that that subsidy is not sufficient.

I will not weary the Committee with details, but I could recall burghs which have been able to give very low rents for slum clearance replacement houses. I hope the hon. Gentleman follows me. So far as the replacing of slum houses is concerned, the 1930 Act subsidy stands as it is at present, undiminished and unincreased. But if in a re-development scheme there were houses which would come in for special subsidy, then, of course, they would be eligible for it. I hope I have made the matter clear. That is how it stands. Replacement houses under the 1930 Act will get only their own subsidies, and the extra Highland grant for ordinary de-crowding work will be available where the necessary conditions exist.

Sir R. HAMILTON

I am sorry to interrupt, but this is a bit complicated. The Financial Resolution refers to "such additional sums as may become payable under Section 23 of the Housing (Scotland) Act, 1930." The point which the Lerwick County Council are anxious about is this: The cost of building a house is exactly the same whether it is built for slain clearance purposes or for de-crowd- ing purposes, and the Government have recognised the necessity of giving an additional grant for de-crowding purposes. That necessity still remains for slum clearance purposes, and I am anxious to know whether the actual wording of this Financial Resolution would cover an additional grant under the 1930 Act.

Mr. SKELTON

I quite understand the point. But the difference is that the subsidy which is going to be augmented under the Highland provision in the Bill is a de-crowding subsidy of £6 15s., which is clearly only meant for building houses and not for pulling houses down. The slum clearance subsidy, which will not be affected, is a subsidy on a much higher scale—that higher scale being for the reason that under slum clearance you have not only to build but to demolish as well. Therefore, I would say that where a scheme in the Highlands is attracting a slum clearance subsidy, it will still attract it. Under the new Bill, where it otherwise would have attracted a subsidy of £6 15s., it will attract the additional subsidy to the amount required.

Sir R. HAMILTON

I understand that, but where the slum clearance subsidy is obviously insufficient, will they be able to get the increased grant under this Financial Resolution? That is my point.

Mr. SKELTON

No, Sir, they will not. I have yet to see cases where the slum clearance subsidy would be insufficient. It is, as my hon. Friend knows, very high.

Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

It being after Half-past Eleven of the Clock upon Thursday evening, Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House, without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.

Adjourned at Three Minutes before Twelve o'Clock.