GOVERNMENT OF INDIA BILL. (Hansard, 19 February 1935)

The CHAIRMAN
I think it was the wish of the small committee which was set up some time ago that I should remind this Committee of the substance of what was then arranged. That committee, as Members will know, had no power. They arranged and agreed among themselves, and with the Government so far as they could do so, to complete the Committee stage within 26 days, increased, so far as might be necessary, up to 30 days. Having, as I say, no power over other Members, but merely being representative of different groups—there were 14 Members of the House present at that committee—they desire that an appeal should be made in their name to Members of this Committee generally to endeavour to work the Committee stage in the spirit of that agreement. So far as the Chair is concerned, there is no difference whatever in the functions of the Chair. In making that appeal, I would remind hon. Members that it means speeches as short as possible and as few as possible, and I think it has been suggested that the Government representative very often should rise perhaps somewhat earlier than he has done on previous occasions in order to give the Government's view. That may dispense possibly with the necessity for further speeches from supporters of the Government, if the Government put their case sufficiently without requiring adventitious aid.
There is one other point that I would like to refer to with regard to the position of the Chair. It may save time considerably if as seldom as possible appeal is made to the Chair for advice, information, explanations, or anything of that kind. I shall be very glad to do the best I can in that way by being accessible to Members outside the Chamber on any points that they may wish to bring before me, in order to avoid discussions on the Floor of the House. The right of the Chair with regard to the selection of Amendments could not be, and was not, discussed in any way by that committee 194 and, like all other powers of the Chair, it remains entirely unaffected by this arrangement.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL
On a point of Order. I would wish to make it quite clear that I consider myself, personally, strictly bound to assist the Government in getting this Bill through in the 30 days of the Committee stage, but I do not at all want to be bound beyond that, and I think it would be a pity if it went forth that Members were engaged beyond that general acceptance of the total time. For instance, I hoped that perhaps I might draw from you some statement in public that the particular allocation of the stages now put down for this Bill is intended to be elastic and provisional and can be modified at the convenience of the House, the sole obligation which we have entered into with the Government being to abandon opposition to the Committee stage within the 30 days, if the Government majority hold together. I should like to have it on record that these provisional allocations are of an elastic character. It would seem, looking at this time-table, that probably more time will be required on the early stages of this Bill. They are fertile in large points of principle—the first 60 Clauses of it are peculiarly fertile in large points of principle—and it would seem that the 30 days would give an opportunity for a very full and free Debate upon the main selected points which the Committee would wish to discuss. I should deprecate our starting upon this discussion with any feeling that we have from the beginning to hustle through our task, to hurry on our task, and that everything has to be got through with the very greatest despatch. The Committee, I trust, will be permitted to work its way into the Bill in the ordinary manner, the agreement and understanding that we finish within 30 days being, of course, paramount. I put these observations forward in order that none of us may be held bound by detailed interpretations proceeding far beyond the subject matter of the main agreement.

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Sir Samuel Hoare)
Before you answer the right hon. Gentleman, Sir Dennis, may I remind you of what hap 195 pened at the conference of the various groups. We were none of us anxious to restrict the discussion of any important interest at all, but we all, including the hon. Members who, I think, represented my right hon. Friend, agreed that it was much better to have some kind of provisional time-table to which we should try to work, and I think we went so far as to hope we might from time to time have guidance from the Chair as to what progress we were making upon those lines. That does not mean that we wish the arrangement to be entirely inelastic, but I am sure that, unless we are ready to run the risk of going through the number of days and then finding at the end that great subjects have not been discussed, it is essential, if this agreement is to be kept—and I hope it will be kept, and I have no reason to think it will not be kept—that we should try to keep to this time-table.

§ Mr. CHURCHILL
Further to the point of Order. My right hon. Friend talks about this agreement being kept. As I have said, the agreement exists, and it is clearly understood that the allocations are provisional. We find ourselves compelled to debate this Bill in Committee only seven days after the Second Reading, which is very unusual and a change of plan, whereas at least a fortnight should have intervened. Certainly I do not feel that we ought to be held in any strict manner to the allocation, and I think my right hon. Friend is putting an altogether stiffer interpretation upon it when he says that it might have some element of elasticity or some term like that. It is more than that. We must have free and easy debate and work our way into this Measure in a free manner, subject to the broad and general agreement which exists.

The CHAIRMAN
I omitted to say, as I should have done, and as the right hon. Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) reminded me, that the provisional arrangement agreed to by that committee was quite definitely that the published time-table was to be provisional, that the committee remains in existence, and that it will meet again from time to time as may be necessary in order to review its working. Perhaps I may just explain 196 by way of example, how I think we stand now under the arrangement. We are now entering on the first period of six days allotted to Parts I and II of the Bill, and, as I understand it, if Parts I and II were finished earlier than the six days, we should be a little ahead and we should go right on to the next compartment. We should then have longer time, if it were necessary, for that compartment. On the other hand, if Parts I and II take more than the six days, there is no Guillotine that falls, and we go straight on with the discussion, but it means that we run into the next compartment, and in other words we are a little behind our provisional time-table. It may be that in that next compartment of time we shall make it up, and we must endeavour to do so, as far as we can, but the working of the time-table is entirely elastic. The small committee hope to meet again from time to time in order to revise the time-table as may be necessary and to make proposals with a view to guiding this Committee as to what it thinks is probably the sort of time-table it would desire to adhere to, if possible.

§ Mr. LANSBURY
It seems to me that this arrangement all depends upon the spirit in which we all agree to carry it out. We all have certain rights in this matter as Members of the House of Commons, and we have collective rights, and all that we are concerned about is that those Amendments which we on this side consider important should have as fair a chance of discussion as those with which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Epping (Mr. Churchill) and his friends are concerned. People do not quite understand that if we felt we had the power to stop the Bill we would use that power, but we have not and, therefore, we propose, with the assent of the Committee and the House, to do our best to amend it in such ways as we think necessary. This proposal, whoever made it, is an excellent one for dealing with a Bill of this kind, but it can only be successful if all of us without reserve consider one another and do our best to get the Bill through.