HC Deb 18 February 1935 vol 298 cc146-52

9.31 p.m.

The PRIME MINISTER (Mr. Ramsay MacDonald)

I beg to move: That the following provisions shall have effect with respect to the Committee stage of the Government of India Bill:

  1. (i) If the Chairman is satisfied with respect to a series of Clauses that no Member desires to move any Amendment to any of those Clauses or to move the postponement or omission of any of them, he shall put the question that those Clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the question separately as respects each. Clause; and
  2. (ii) Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 7.30 p.m. on a day on which the Bill is set down as the first Order of the Day shall, instead of being taken as provided by the Standing Orders, be taken on the conclusion of that day's proceedings on the Bill, and may be proceeded with, though opposed, notwithstanding the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House."
This Resolution was on the Order Paper on Friday, and with the object of meeting the convenience of certain hon. and right hon. Members, it has been held over until to-day. The origin of the Resolution was explained by me last Wednesday in reporting the very useful work that the Committee representing all parties of this House had done in connection with the allocation of time for the Committee stage of the India Bill. I understand that in addition to the time-table to which it agreed, the Committee unanimously resolved to recommend to the House to make such provisions as are contained in this Resolution. The first part of the Resolution empowers the Chairman to put in block clauses that stand together to which no Amendments are to be moved. It is a time-saving proposal. Instead of the Chairman putting Clause after Clause to which no Amendment is to be moved, he will put the whole series of Clauses together as one question. The second part of the Resolution provides for the common practice under a Guillotine Motion, when Private Bills are down for a day when the Bill under consideration is being discussed in the House, that those Bills shall be taken not at 7.30 but at 11 o'clock, after the day's apportioned work has been finished. It is proposed that when the India Bill is the first Order of the day, then Private Bills, put down ordinarily for 7.30, will be taken at 11 o'clock, or as near 11 o'clock as the business will allow.

I repeat the statement I made on Wednesday, that the Government have no intention of frequently resorting to the suspension of the Eleven o'Clock Rule. As a matter of fact, this will be resorted to only when it is obviously for the convenience of the House, and in order to make the time-table really workable. Only in those conditions will the Government propose to suspend the Eleven o'Clock Rule. When it is suspended, it may be that a matter of five or 10 minutes will enable the Committee to finish a particular section of the Bill; and it would be a great waste of time to the Committee if the Government were to say now that it did not matter as to where the Committee had got at 11 o'clock, the India Bill business would be suspended and the Private Bill business would be taken. It is for that reason that I say we cannot promise that Private Business will be taken exactly at 11 o'clock. I would like to say in this connection that Private Business is a matter for the Chairman of Ways and Means, and our experience is that he always does his best to fit in that business so that it will not disturb any important business in which the House may be engaged, so far as it is possible to anticipate that. This Resolution, coming here with the unanimous backing of the Committee which has been of such great help in arranging the business, comes, I think, with very high commendation.

9.35 p.m.

Mr. LANSBURY

It is quite true, as the Prime Minister says, that my friends on the Committee have agreed to these proposals, but I would like to say, before they are finally carried, that I very much hope the Chairman of Ways and Means will find it not convenient to put down Private Bills on days when the Government of India Bill is being discussed. But that, of course, must be within his discretion. I would also like to say that the fact that we come to this voluntary arrangement in respect to this Bill should impress all the Members of this House with the fact that sooner or later—I hope sooner—we shall come to some agreement to review our procedure in a more drastic and thorough manner and so arrange our discussions as to make this sort of voluntary arrangement unnecessary. If this is carried through satisfactorily, I think it will help us to arrive at conclusions as to reforms of our Standing Orders which I think are very necessary in regard to many of the details in connection with the consideration of Bills.

Although I know that on occasion I can be as good a sinner as anyone speaking from one of these boxes and although it is true that some people might say, "Physician, heal thyself," it is also true that whatever other people agree to for the convenience of the House I hope I shall only be too willing to fall in with. I hope very much indeed that there will be a voluntary agreement, and I repeat, what I said the other day, that those who are considered, and who sometimes consider themselves, entitled to make rather long speeches on important questions will all put a self-denying ordinance on themselves. especially as we shall be in Committee, and thus give everybody a fair and square chance.

It is in the natural order of things, I think, that, I was going to say a Churchill, but one of the descendants of one of the members of the Fourth party that was in existence a long while ago should be causing the sort of upheaval that he has caused, both in the party to which he belongs and in this House, but out of evil or what might be evil comes good, and if this proposal is carried through successfully, I should hope the House of Commons would tackle its whole procedure in a thoroughly workmanlike manner, so that we shall not need to have these voluntary arrangements as to how we should carry on our business.

9.39 p.m.

Mr. MANDER

I am fully in accord with the happy arrangement come to and should be very sorry to say anything to disturb it, but it does, as a matter of fact, have certain other consequences, because it will still further infringe on the small amount of time left to private Members. The Government has found it necessary to take all private Members' time this Session, and this Motion will have the effect that, if hon. Members desire to raise a matter on the Motion for Adjournment at 11 o'clock, one of the few opportunities left to them, and it so happens that under this arrangement the Chairman of Committees has put down a private Bill for 11 o'clock, they will be still further deprived of this opportunity. I want, therefore, to make an appeal to the Prime Minister to give still further consideration to the question that I put it to the Lord President of the Council before Christmas, to the effect that when the Motion for Adjournment at 11 o'clock for the purposes of private Members does operate, we shall be allowed to have the full half-hour, I have a question down on that subject for this week, and I hope that between now and when it is answered the right hon. Gentleman will consider whether in the circumstances he can make that concession.

9.40 p.m.

Mr. HERBERT WILLIAMS

I wish to thank the Prime Minister for the very dear and definite way in which he has met the point that I raised the other day, and made it quite clear that a notice of Motion to leave out a Clause is to be deemed to be an Amendment for the purpose of paragraph (i) of this Motion. I would, however, like to draw attention to the second paragraph, because a number of us are a little perturbed at the changes in the law that are being brought about in Private Bill legislation. Some little corporation seeks some new power of a general character, and unless it is challenged, it may pass through Committee upstairs and become the law of the land in respect of that particular locality. Because Parliament has consented to that change in respect of one municipality in one particular year, in subsequent years every other municipality that comes along can get that power, a power which in general may interfere with the liberty of the subject.

It happens that there is one Bill this Session which contains more Clauses challenging the liberty of the subject than any other Bill brought forward for a long time, and I hope that if that Bill is opposed on Second Reading, as I believe it will be, it may be possible for the Chairman of Ways and Means to select a day for its consideration at 7.30 p.m. which will not be a day on which the Government of India Bill will be under consideration in Committee, because from some points of view these Private Bills raise issues of very much greater importance in their ultimate consequences than some of the Government Measures which may be presented. The liberties of the people can be whittled away through a chance Clause in a Corporation Bill, which is gradually extended until it becomes the general law of the country, and my sole purpose in rising is to express the hope that when any Bill raising an issue of major importance is opposed, it will not be put down to come on at 11 o'clock instead of 7.30 p.m., when it will have a chance of reasonable and proper consideration.

9.43 p.m.

Mr, C. WILLIAMS

As I raised this question of postponing private business the other day, may I be permitted to thank the Prime Minister for the assurance that he gave us that every endeavour will be made to take this business as near 11 o'clock as possible? I would like to emphasise the point that private business, if carried on until a late hour, is expensive, if I know my lawyers, and the cost of private business is a very heavy burden on many people. I hope that under no circumstances will it have to come on at 11 o'clock, and that the Chairman's genius for finding better days will have the most complete. success. If so, we need not worry about it, but I wish to put it on record that, although the emergency is very great and must be met, and although I am entirely favourable to this agreement and hope it will succeed, there are some of us who hope this will not be a precedent to be used in future for putting private Members' business down at 11 o'clock. With regard to what the hon. Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Mander) said, it seems that every single influence that the Government possesses is used to rule the private Member out of general circulation in the House and put him into circulation only in the Division Lobbies. I feel that the Prime Minister sympathises with private Members.

The sooner we get away from the danger of private Member's rights being eliminated, the better it will be for the morale of the House. I am sure that the House will have to be reorganised in a great many ways in future, and when it comes I hope that the opportunity will not be taken to eliminate the private Member. I wonder if I may add a word on the matter of long speeches. I do not know that I err so much in the length of speech as in the frequency of speech, and I welcome the appeal which the Leader of the Opposition has made for short speeches, especially from the Front Benches. Sometimes when I hear the Scotsmen asking for something, or lawyers or Members of the Front Benches asking for something, I become suspicious, but I hope that on this occasion it means that the right hon. Gentleman will lead us and that his appeal will not have been made in vain. On the Committee stage of a Bill Members want to seek the truth about the Bill and to have various points made clear, but if we are to have big three-decker speeches from right hon. Gentlemen and nobody else, it will be difficult to get all the information we want in order to deal with the Bill thoroughly. I congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on his appeal, and hope that he will follow his own advice.

Ordered,

"That the following provisions shall have effect with respect to the Committee stage of the Government of India Bill:
  1. (i) If the Chairman is satisfied with respect to a series of Clauses that no Member desires to move any Amendment to any of those Clauses or to move the postponement or omission of any of them, he shall put the question that those Clauses stand part of the Bill without putting the question separately as respects each Clause; and
  2. (ii) Any Private Business which is set down for consideration at 7.30 p.m. on a day on which the Bill is set down as the first Order of the Day shall, instead of being taken as provided by the Standing Orders, be taken on the conclusion of that day's proceedings on the Bill, and may be proceeded with, though opposed, notwithstanding the provisions of any Standing Order relating to the Sittings of the House."

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

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