HC Deb 09 April 1935 vol 300 cc1118-24

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

10.40 p.m.

Sir H. CROFT

In asking the Committee to consider this Clause I believe that we are calling attention to perhaps the most important matter that we have discussed to-day. It raises a question which occurs to us, unless there is some explanation from the Secretary of State that we do not understand, to be of supreme importance. The Clause appears to confer upon the present Legislature during the transitional stage all the powers which the Federal Legislature have and when it is established is to have, including all the powers of the Concurrent List and their enforcement on the Provinces, without either of the two great suggested safeguards which we have been told from time to time are so important, namely, the entry of the Princes as the stabilising element of the States, and at the same time the representation of opinion from the Provinces, expressed through indirect election,

In view of the present overwhelming Congress majority in the Assembly it would appear that this Clause as it stands now is really dangerous. From whatever point of view anyone may look upon the Bill that is dangerous, because we are likely to put into force certain provisions on quite a different basis from that which we have contemplated in the whole of our discussions. In the not unlikely event of Federation being indefinitely delayed, which everyone will admit is possible, it may be for two or three years or 10 years, and we think it very likely that it will be indefinitely postponed, we shall have responsibility at the Centre established for British India which will in fact be a subterfuge. That cannot be the intention of the Committee and I cannot believe that it is the intention of the Secretary of State. It appears to me to be a matter of supreme importance and I should be very grateful if my right hon. Friend would tell us that we are wrong in our fears, otherwise it is a matter upon which there must be very vital conflict of opinion.

10.43 p.m.

Sir S. HOARE

I agree that at first sight this Clause looks formidable, but when it is analysed it will be found to be without the dangers contemplated by my hon. and gallant Friend. The word "powers" has a somewhat disturbing effect at first sight, but in actual practice "powers" in this Clause only means the powers in the Federal and Provincial lists; simply the Legislative powers conferred by the two lists. My hon. and gallant Friend seemed to fear that under this Clause the Central Legislature and the Central Government would obtain greater powers than they have now. The exact contrary is the case. In the first place, the setting up of provincial autonomy would in itself considerably restrict the field of the activity of the Central Legislature. The Central Legislature at the present time can legislate over the whole field of Indian government. In the transitional period it will not be able to legislate over the very wide field of Provincial legislation. My hon. and gallant Friend mentioned the question of the Concurrent List. There, again, the legislative field of the Centre is being considerably restricted. At the present time it has full power over the whole field. In future it will not have power over the Provincial List. My first answer, therefore, to my hon. and gallant Friend is that the Central Legislature so far from having greater powers than it has now will have smaller powers in the transitional period.

My second answer is that there can be no question of the executive at the Centre becoming responsible to the Central Legislature during the transitional period. The executive at the Centre during the transitional period will remain the Governor-General in Council, just as it is now, and there can be no question whatever that during the transitional period, a Government will be set up at the Centre responsible to the central legislature. I hope that these two answers have disposed of my hon. and gallant Friend's fears and shown him that this is really a machinery Clause, under which all that can happen is that the provincial legislatures will have powers over the provincial field, and that the central Government at the Centre will go on as they are now, with the exception that their powers will be less during the transitional period.

10.46 p.m.

Sir H. CROFT

I confess that I am completely fogged, although it may be my failure to understand the position. At the commencement and conclusion of his remarks the Secretary of State indicated that the Provinces will have the full powers under this Bill in operation. That is what many of us have been led to imagine is quite impossible; that without the full Federation scheme you cannot go on with provincial government. That has been the main case against my hon. Friends and myself; that it is absurd to talk about provincial government unless you have full Federation. The Secretary of State commenced and ended his remarks by indicating to the Committee that, in spite of all our labours, all his arguments fall to the ground, and I think we should have further explanation before we part with the Clause.

10.47 p.m.

Sir S. HOARE

I at once give the hon. and gallant Member any further explanation he desires. We have always contemplated, everybody who has had anything to do with these inquiries has contemplated, that there must be a transitional period; that provincial autonomy is bound to come into operation at a date anterior to the coming into operation of Federation. What many of my friends and I have always said is that a transitional arrangement is bound to be in the nature of things a stop-gap, but we do not contemplate the transitional period is going on for ever. In a transitional period, I hope of a limited extent, it is possible to put up with anomalies which would become almost intolerable if the transitional period became permanent

10.48 p.m.

Mr. MORGAN JONES

We appreciate the fact that there must be a transitional period, and, therefore, I gather that two consequences must follow. One, that the Provinces will be in full exercise of their provincial powers and that as a consequence the Central Assembly, the present Federal Assembly, will be in possession of much more limited powers than hitherto. In my judgment, that is a very strong reason indeed for seeing to it that the transitional period is not unduly prolonged. If the Central Assembly as it is now is shorn of some of its powers still exists, with the Governor-General and his council exercising full authority as hitherto, and they find themselves in a position of suspended animation, then the Government will be creating a state of resentment which. I am sure they would deplore. The lesson we get therefore from this Clause is that we should press onward with the completion of this scheme and the reduction of the transitional period.

10.50 p.m.

Viscount WOLMER

Before pursuing the important point of which My hon. and gallant Friend spoke, I should like to ask one or two questions. I am not quite satisfied with the explanation given by the Secretary of State. Could he tell me here and now what is the necessity for the proviso to the Clause: Provided that nothing in this section shall empower the Indian Legislature to impose limits on the power of the Governor-General in Council to borrow mooney. Why is it necessary to make that particular exception, if the first part of this Clause gives no more powers than he said in his speech? I gather from what he said that the effect of this Clause is to extend it to the transitional legislature not only concurrently but also to the Federal as well. The Secretary of State said that is quite true, and that it is after all a great deal smaller than at present. Why then is this proviso necessary? It does not seem to me quite consistent with what the Secretary of State said; if that proviso is necessary you should have one or two other provisos as well.

10.52 p.m.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

If the Noble Lord will look at Clause 158 he will see that there is a Clause that will come into operation when the Federation comes into operation, saying that the executive authority of the Federation extends to borrowing, the expenditure being limited from time to time and fixed by Act of the Federal Legislature. The Federal Legislature will have power to fix by Act the extent of the borrowing Act. I believe the Noble Lord introduced an Amendment on that Clause to provide that it should not be particularly rigid. It is in the nature of a new power conferred on the Federal Legislature when it comes into force, and it is necessary to have a proviso to make it quite clear that the earlier part of the Clause does not confer that power on the existing Legislature.

Viscount WOLMER

It says that within such limits as may from time to time be fixed by act of the Federal Legislature. If it has not come into being, how can that work?

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL

The first part of the Clause confers powers which shall be exercisable by the Indian Legislature, and these are words giving the Federal Legislature powers of imposing limits. It is not intended that this power shall be exercisable by the Indian Legislature.

Viscount WOLMER

Is that the only point for which this Clause exists? I must take it that it is so. It seems rather alarming on reading the Clause for the first time. In answer to what fell from the hon. Member who spoke last, I should like to say this: It seems to him immaterial as to whether the Constitution is going to work well or not, or whether all conditions are fulfilled.

Mr. MORGAN JONES

I do not know who gave the Noble Lord authority to say that: I did not.

Viscount WOLMER

Perhaps if the hon. Member would listen long enough he would bear my reasons. He has just said that if Federation does not come as quickly as he would like, he will do every-think he can to speed it up. His party will do everything possible to speed up Federation. I say with all respect that that is a disastrous approach to the whole problem. The Government have made the arrival of Federation contingent on certain conditions, most of which, if not all, are accepted by hon. Members opposite. We on this side base our opposition to Federation, not on any objection to principle, but merely because we believe that the necessary conditions cannot be fulfilled within a near time. We believe that events will prove that this part of the Bill will probably last for a generation—a generation which is a very short time, after all, in the history of India. It is very unfortunate that the Secretary of State should allow himself to utter phrases like that to which he has just given expression—that prolongation of this period would be intolerable. What is intolerable is something that cannot be borne. If the conditions which are necessary to Federation are not forthcoming this transitional period will have to be borne. It is much better that everyone should make up his mind not to try to bring in Federation until the conditions really do exist.

10.57 p.m.

Colonel GRETTON

The Secretary of State made a very interesting statement. He has explained to us that this transitional period will be in the hands of the present Legislature, with rather less power than at present, that is, excluding the power of borrowing money. We asked the Government how long the period is likely to last. They say they cannot give any promise or undertaking. My hon. Friends have pointed out that the conditions of Federation are laid down in the Bill by the Government themselves. This transitional period may last for an indefinite time, under conditions which the Secretary of State has said are intolerable. We are really faced with a most serious situation. The present Legislature is for an indefinite period to exercise all the powers of Federation, with one financial exception. It really is a most intolerable position and one which is a great surprise to most of us. We cannot accept that position as it stands. We must press the matter further and get a further explanation. The Government condemn their own proposal. My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bournemouth (Sir H. Croft) called attention to the fact that the present Legislature is dominated by the Congress party which is going to refuse to operate the terms of this Bill.

It being Eleven o'Clock The CHAIRMAN left the Chair to make his Report to the House.

Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

The remaining Orders were read, and postponed.

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